🌐 Mailman 3 December 2001 - Python-list - python.org

REPOST: win32all-141 for Python 2.2
by Mark Hammond Jan. 3, 2002

Jan. 3, 2002

I have made a new win32all release for Python 2.2. Hrmm - it seems I can't login to starship :( So I have temporarily placed it at: http://users.bigpond.net.au/mhammond/win32all-141.exe The only new known issue is that "Active Debugging" will probably not work - using the Microsoft Debuggers when using Python in an ASP or IE page will fail. I will move this to starship, including details of exactly what has changed, ASAP. Mark. ========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======: Path: news.sol.net!spool1-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!feeder.kornet.net!news1.kornet.net!ua4canc3ll3r From: Mark Hammond <mhammond(a)skippinet.com.au> Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Subject: cmsg cancel <3C2D4676.5060700(a)skippinet.com.au> Control: cancel <3C2D4676.5060700(a)skippinet.com.au> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 03:05:35 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 2 Message-ID: <cancel.3C2D4676.5060700(a)skippinet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.57.49.2 X-Trace: news2.kornet.net 1009774882 27193 211.57.49.2 (31 Dec 2001 05:01:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet(a)news2.kornet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 05:01:22 +0000 (UTC) X-No-Archive: yes X-Unac4ncel: yes X-Commentary: I love NewsAgent 1.10 and the Sandblaster Cancel Engine Build 74 (19 March 1999) This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

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Re: Python and Ruby: a comparison
by Conrad Schneiker Jan. 3, 2002

Jan. 3, 2002

"Ron Stephens" <rdsteph(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > I initiated a thread over on comp.lang.python which has turned into > somewhat of a comparison between Ruby and Python, their relative > strengths and weaknesses. The thread is titled Python Popularity: > Questions and Comments. [...] > By teh way, I admire Ruby. Although I am a Python hacker at heart, I > enjoy this newsgroup, the Ruby community, and I think Matz is doing an > outstanding job. I do believe though, that Python and Ruby are aimed at > a very similar problem domains with similar philosophies; and that is > what I began to talk about on comp.lang.python and that got the thread > going. [In this and other somewhat related threads] Some people have (in different words) lamented the "language fork" (as it were) with respect to providing the major dynamic OO alternative to Perl (and Java and C++). Others have pointed out that Python and Ruby appeal to somewhat different tastes and that they draw newcomers from only partially overlapping pools of people. Nevertheless, there is some inevitable division of potential resources and mind share. Othes have pointed out various relatively moderate but nagging problems in Ruby and Python which persist due to backwards compatibility, which won't be fixed until the (highly speculative) advent of major overhalls where full backwards compatibility is not completely manditory--i.e. Ruby.next and Python 3000. So my question is: at such a presently entirely hypothetical future juncture, is there any practical and desirable middle ground for a common single successor language to the current generations of Python and Ruby? Conrad

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US taxes: parsing postscript and/or pdf?
by Harry George Jan. 3, 2002

Jan. 3, 2002

First, is anyone already doing a python-based US federal tax package? (I see the C/gnome gnutaxes, but it appears to be dead.) If not, my next approach is to download IRS forms in PDF or Postscript, and then manipulate those templates. That requires parsing the pdf or postscript, detecting named fields, putting in new data, and regenrating the printable format. Reportlab might help with pdf output, and postscript can be output with raw write commands. But what is available for parsing the templates? E.g., is there a library out of "gv" or "xpdf" which has python bindings? -- Harry George hgg9140(a)seanet.com

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REPOST: Re: Book "python programming patterns". anybody read this??
by Peter Milliken Jan. 3, 2002

Jan. 3, 2002

G'Day Cliff, "Cliff Wells" <logiplexsoftware(a)earthlink.net> wrote in message news:mailman.1009574494.4804.python-list@python.org... > On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 06:59:21 +1100 > "Peter Milliken" <peter.milliken(a)gtech.com> wrote: > > > Generally the standard of maintenance programmer is just > > not as good as developers (otherwise they would be developing, wouldn't > > they? :-)) and so it is a well recognised tenant that I attempt to follow > - > > code for the lowest common denominator. > <snip on the bitching :-)> Sorry to hear of these experiences, I guess we all run into this kind of situation sooner or later :-). Good luck with unravelling the mess. > Anyway, my point is, I think your statement is unfounded. There are > undoubtedly cases where what you said is true, but to assume it's the > common case is wrong - especially when you consider that many people > (myself included) learned to program by developing applications, so the > quality of coding in those apps is poor (I would probably cringe if I were > to review code I wrote 10 years ago - some poor sod is probably cursing me > right now as he tries to decipher some mess I wrote =) > I am an Electrical Engineer with a single semester of Fortran and Basic :-). The rest is self-taught, on the job training that spans (depending how you count it) at least 20 - 25 years. We all "cringe" when we think of our earliest efforts - I still produce awful code when I make the mistake of thinking I can just bash out a program off the top of my head - personally, I have to sit down and think the entire application through and do a design and requirements analysis (not in that order :-)) otherwise I end up with a poorly designed and coded mess :-). Perhaps others can say they produce works of art off the top of their heads without design that they would be proud to have other programmers review - I can't. Most of us, at some stage, spend our early introduction in a maintenance environment (mine was maintaining 24 6" thick volumes of listings of assembler code which another company had been hired to provide comments for, they ended up with approximately one comment per listing page - back in '79, I think it was :-)). I am currently work in a maintenance environment. So sometimes you tend to make statements that are a bit sweeping. But I still stick by the general statement that typically, the majority of programmers in maintenance roles would not be there if they had a choice. I am an exception, I have a choice, but my choice was to get out of defence - and to erase a "stigma" of 20 years in an industry isn't easy! :-) > Besides, applications are often written without a good specification (or > only a very basic one) so the developer is left winging it, adding > features, learning new toolkits, etc, until the original architecture is > obscured beyond comprehension. Take a look at many of the open-source > projects around and you'll often find that one of the first things > "maintainers" do upon acquiring a system is recode large portions of it to > make it more readable/maintainable, etc. > Yes, I have a poor background to comment here and this may sound (almost certainly! :-)) overly harsh, because I spent most of my work experience in the defence industry. But to me, "pressure to market", "no time to analyise", "no time to design", "customer doesn't know what he wants, so we have to wing it" - are at the end of the day just excuses for the fact that *all* the people involved in the project can't be brought around to the concept/idea that you should sit down and plan the project step by step and not proceed to the next until the previous is complete i.e. sit down with the customer, analyise the requires - protype if necessary, but get them nailed down and worked out until the customer is happy that he knows what he wants!. Then the programmer should sit down and use the analsysis to generate a design (documentation! ugh, how many programmers want to spend their life doing documentation! - there is always some excuse not too! :-) "gee, if we did that then the competition would beat us to market and we wouldn't have a job" - true I am sure in some cases but I doubt this is true for the majority of cases/projects!). Then the code can be generated from the design. Overally idealistic I am sure, but that is my opinion :-) People talk about the "software crisis" - the only crisis I have seen (in my experience :-)) is the one that your typical programmer doesn't want to do "paperwork" - all he/she wants to do is generate the next coding masterpiece. A formal analysis means paperwork, a good design means paperwork (and what is worse - others have to be able to read and understand it! :-)). But most programmers want to cut code - nothing else :-). Your point about the open source projects proves the point. Nobody bothered i.e. wanted to, sit down and work out the requirements properly - that would have taken "unnecessary time", "we know what we want - lets start coding!" :-) Hence others come in after the fact and re-write the entire thing - a very expensive exercise! Peter > That said, I don't disagree with your tenant of coding for the LCD. While > not always possible, it's good to keep in mind when one is tempted to write > "clever" code =) > > Regards, > > -- > Cliff Wells > Software Engineer > Logiplex Corporation (www.logiplex.net) > (503) 978-6726 x308 > (800) 735-0555 x308 > ========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======: Path: news.sol.net!spool1-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.kornet.net!news1.kornet.net!ua4canc3ll3r From: "Peter Milliken" <peter.milliken(a)gtech.com> Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Subject: cmsg cancel <a0nvg7$26n4(a)news1.gtech.com> Control: cancel <a0nvg7$26n4(a)news1.gtech.com> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:21:31 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 2 Message-ID: <cancel.a0nvg7$26n4(a)news1.gtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.57.49.2 X-Trace: news2.kornet.net 1009774059 27193 211.57.49.2 (31 Dec 2001 04:47:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet(a)news2.kornet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:47:39 +0000 (UTC) X-No-Archive: yes X-Unac4ncel: yes X-Commentary: I love NewsAgent 1.10 and the Sandblaster Cancel Engine Build 74 (19 March 1999) This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

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Re: /usr/bin/env: python: No such file or directory
by Chris Barker Jan. 3, 2002

Jan. 3, 2002

Cliff Wells wrote: > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:16:54 -0800 > Chris Barker <chrishbarker(a)attbi.com> wrote: > > > I suppose, if we all, as a community, start using: > > > > #!/use/bin/env python2.1 > > > > Then the problem will be solved, at least on *nix... > > > > Then what do you do with a script that will run on either 1.5 or 2.0 or > > 2.1 ????? and you don't know which of these might be installed? > It seems reasonable that if your script requires a particular version of Python to append the version to the executable name (i.e. python2.1), There are two problems here: 1) This would only work if we all, as a community, established this convention. So far I have only seem "python" used, for all versions... 2) It only applies to *nix. Windows and the Macintosh would need different conventions. I think a platform independent Python based solution is a better way to go. >> and if your script doesn't care, then just use "python" which could be a symbolic link to the >> default python interpreter (much as redhat has it >> now). The problem with what RedHat has now is that apparently some of the scripts DO care! even though now it is not too hard to write code that will run on version 1.5 - 2.2, eventually we will be at Python 4.*, and you may be very hard pressed to write code that doesn't care, but you may be able to write code that works on 2.2 - 3,5 , for instance. Also while you may write a script now that "doesn't care", when Python 3 comes out with some new incompatability, it will then care, but the "python" will still be there. >> It might be helpful if the python interpreter took a flag such as >> --required-version or >> --minimum-version so that a warning could >> be printed if the script requires a version different than what is >> available on the system. How would the interpreter know what version was required? That's exactly what I think we need...A way to tell the interpreter what version is required by a script. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. ChrisHBarker(a)attbi.net --- --- --- ---@@ -----@@ -----@@ ------@@@ ------@@@ ------@@@ Oil Spill Modeling ------ @ ------ @ ------ @ Water Resources Engineering ------- --------- -------- Coastal and Fluvial Hydrodynamics -------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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affects on extended modules
by Curtis Jensen Jan. 3, 2002

Jan. 3, 2002

We have created a python interface to some core libraries of our own making. We also have a C interface to these same libraries. However, the the python interface seems to affect the speed of the extended libraries. ie. some library routines have their own benchmark code, and the time of exection from the start of the library routine to the end of the library routine (not including any python code execution), takes longer than it's C counterpart. Note, all data memory in Python is allocated using Numeric to allocate memory for arrays. All data memory in the C counterpart is allocated using basic array constructs using alloc. We are unsure of why there is a performance difference. We only have some speculation. Our best guess is that the memory allocated in Python is causing cache faults and thus incurring some overhead. If anyone else has any ideas, we would appreciate any input. Thanks. -- Curtis Jensen cjensen(a)bioeng.ucsd.edu http://www-bioeng.ucsd.edu/~cjensen/ FAX (425) 740-1451

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/usr/bin/env: python: No such file or directory
by ddidierd78 Jan. 3, 2002

Jan. 3, 2002

Hi, I am running redhat 7.2 and installed the following: python2.2-2.2b1-2.i386.rpm python2.2-devel-2.2b1-2.i386.rpm python2.2-tools-2.2b1-2.i386.rpm When trying to run a script, I get the following message: /usr/bin/env: python: No such file or directory additionally the only thing relating to python in /usr/bin is the file python2.2 Thanks for any help, Dan

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Python 1.5.x vs Python 2.x.x
by Angus Mackay Jan. 3, 2002

Jan. 3, 2002

there seems to be lots of stuff that refrences python 1.5.x or requires it but he www.python.org website doesn't mention it at all. what is the deal? what are people using? it seems to me that python doesn't handle versioning at all well under windows, if I build a module agains python 2.1 it wont work under a python 2.2 interpreter at all? cheers, Angus.

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REPOST: Help - command line arguments
by Steve Zatz Jan. 2, 2002

Jan. 2, 2002

I am new to Python and although I am sure that the following is obvious I can't figure the following out or find an answer in any of the texts that I have access to. My question is: Can you run a script that takes command line arguments from within the Python shell or from the Python command line? For example, something like: test.py -a -b runs fine from the *Windows XP* command prompt. >From the Python command line, I can do the following: import test test.main() which doesn't produce an exception but I can't figure out how to input the command line arguments. And from the Python Shell, just running test.main() produces a getopt exception which does not occur when it runs from the Python command line. (But in either case, I can't figure out how to use command line arguments.) Again, any help would be appreciated. Thanks. ========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======: Path: news.sol.net!spool1-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.kornet.net!news1.kornet.net!ua4canc3ll3r From: "Steve Zatz" <slzatz(a)hotmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Subject: cmsg cancel <YpxX7.242028$bs2.45285312(a)news02.optonline.net> Control: cancel <YpxX7.242028$bs2.45285312(a)news02.optonline.net> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:45:39 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 2 Message-ID: <cancel.YpxX7.242028$bs2.45285312(a)news02.optonline.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.57.49.2 X-Trace: news2.kornet.net 1009774392 27193 211.57.49.2 (31 Dec 2001 04:53:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet(a)news2.kornet.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 04:53:12 +0000 (UTC) X-No-Archive: yes X-Unac4ncel: yes X-Commentary: I love NewsAgent 1.10 and the Sandblaster Cancel Engine Build 74 (19 March 1999) This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

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Re: age of new pythonistas [was: The Editor Poll results are in!]
by coca＠houston.rr.com Jan. 2, 2002

Jan. 2, 2002

17 I started coding Python about a week ago but began coding 2 years ago with C++ (in actuality it was C using iostream and some other C++ libraries :-P) and then later learned C itself and true C++. I expirimented with Java (and disliked it's feature-less nature, although they recently took after C++ with templates) and C# (don't even remind me, please!) but obviously didn't approve of them. I tried some Perl but found it to be way too much of an intimidating mess of syntax and modules. I also learned Tcl and found it to be a better alternative to Perl but not quite "there" if you know what I mean, although I loved Tk (and it's great that other languages can use Tk!). So now I come upon Python and it looks like it's going to stay. I use a laptop with linux (no internet) and a desktop with windows (with internet and burner) and am glad to say that everything works well cross-platform. I have already interfaced some of my C code with Python on Windows but since I really HATE VC++ (no, it does not compile C++, it compiles some made up stuff MS calls C++), I'm going to do more of that in Linux. I think Python is great because it is well designed (unlike Perl), it has many features and modules (unlike Tcl, but I might be wrong about that due to ignorance), and it has great integration of C and C++! I hope to be able to create modules to be used by the entire Python community sometime. Dan

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