🌐 Mailman 3 April 2004 - Python-list - python.org

And *this* is why you need Perl!? (was: Is Perl *that* good?)
by claird＠lairds.com May 24, 2004

May 24, 2004

In article <mailman.49.1083084698.25742.python-list(a)python.org>, Skip Montanaro <skip(a)pobox.com> wrote: . . . >differences. In addition, as Jamie Zawinski suggests, regular expressions >are not always the best choice. > >Skip > "suggests"? I thought he was "chanting", or "intoning", or "inveighing" or "denouncing" or ... Well, I'll say it on my own behalf: friends, REs are not always the best choice <URL: http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=2472/uni1037388368795/ >. -- Cameron Laird <claird(a)phaseit.net> Business: http://www.Phaseit.net

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Re: Python and XForms: existing implementations?
by jjl＠pobox.com May 21, 2004

May 21, 2004

"Christian Wilcox" <cwilcox(a)etcconnect.com> writes: > Does anyone know of any existing Python implementations of an XForms > viewer? What environment does it have to work in? Does it have to be cross-platform? Does it have to be in pure Python, or just useable from Python? Does it have to integrate with a particular GUI framework, or with MS OLE? Does it have to be open source? etc. (BTW, you might want to disambiguate this: XForms is both an XML standard and an old GUI toolkit -- I assume you mean the former) John

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Getting output from embedded python program
by thefirstofnovember＠yahoo.com May 19, 2004

May 19, 2004

Hi everyone, I'm writing a embeded python program, and I want to evaluate some expression by calling function: PyRun_SimpleString("print 'hello'") I don't want to output it to stdout but putting it into string somehow sothat I can process it. Do anybody know how I can do that? Thanks very much Kim

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Paris python user group?
by francois lepoutre May 15, 2004

May 15, 2004

Hi all french speaking, Paris-based python users, Bonjour à tous les utilisateurs parisiens de python, How many are we to use python in the *Paris* Area? Enough to build some community life? Combien sommes nous à utiliser python sur Paris? Assez pour monter une assoc? Two years ago i discovered perl and, by the way, their cheerfull and welcoming Paris user community http://paris.mongueurs.net/ Il y a deux ans, j'ai découvert perl et, par la même occasion, la chaleureuse ambiance des perl mongueurs de Paris Informal meeting at "La Taverne République" 5, place de la République every month. Socialising, a few drinks, some food (pizzas available for die-hard... but most would stick to moules-frites:) Une réunion informelle à la "Taverne République" 5, place de la République chaque mois. Une ambiance decomplexée, quelques boissons et des moules-frites (pizzas pour les accros). Great hours re-shaping IT late from 8pm into the night... but I have since switched to python. Des heures agréables à refaire notre industrie à partir de 8 heures du soir ... Mais depuis je suis passé à python. Anyone to join for a "Paris python user group"? Des volontaires pour un groupe parisien ? Same place, same programme, but there's room for negociation, both for the drink and the food :) Nous proposons le même lieu et la même formule mais nous sommes prêts à discuter :) François et Jean

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Ideas for Python 3
by David MacQuigg May 13, 2004

May 13, 2004

I am starting a new thread so we can avoid some of the non-productive argument following my earlier post "What is good about Prothon". At Mr. Hahn's request, I will avoid using the name "Prothon" in the subject of any post to this newsgroup. Please ignore the old thread. I've also updated my webpage http://ece.arizona.edu/~edatools/Python Anyone with some good ideas for "Python 3" is welcome to contribute. I hope GvR won't sue me for calling it "Python 3" :>) Here is the original proposal: < snip criticism of Prothon syntax > ... There are a number of aspects to this simplification, but for me the unification of methods and functions is the biggest benefit. All methods look like functions (which students already understand). Prototypes (classes) look like modules. This will make teaching OOP much simpler, especially for the students and professional engineers (non-CIS) that I am most concerned about. I teach electronic design tools, not programming. Current plans are to include some basic Python, no OOP. If I could add OOP with another 4 hours, I would do it. I've written a proposal for a prototype syntax that I believe captures the essense of what is good in Prothon, while not departing too radically from Python. see PrototypeSyntax.htm at http://ece.arizona.edu/~edatools/Python/ I would like to get feedback from Python experts on the potential problems with this syntax. The major question is automatic translation of existing Python programs to the new syntax. I'm one of those users who would not give up the existing libraries in Python, no matter how good some alternative language may be. I would also like to get feedback from users on what they like or dislike about this proposal. I will summarize this feedback in the "Pros and Cons" section of the proposal. Below are some excerpts from the syntax proposal. Please see the link above for better formatting. -- Dave Proposed Prototype Syntax ========================= < snip > Example of Simplified Classes ( Prototypes ) ============================================ Animal --> Mammal --> Feline --> Cat ------- ------- ------- ------- numAnimals numMammals numFelines numCats home genus __init__() __init__() __init__() __init__() .sound .sound .name show() show() show() show() talk() talk() proto Animal(object): # Inherit from the primitive object. numAnimals = 0 home = "Earth" ... <see the "OOP Chapter" at http://ece.arizona.edu/~edatools/Python/ for the complete example.> ... proto Cat(Feline): numCats = 0 __init__ :( n = "unknown", s = "Meow" ): Feline.__init__() Cat.numCats += 1 .name = n # Set instance variables. .sound = s show :(): # Define a "static method". Feline.show() print " Cats:", Cat.numCats talk :(): print "My name is ...", .name print "I am a %s from %s" % (.genus, .home) Mammal.talk() # Call an unbound function. print __self__ ### Diagnostic check. cat1 = Cat() # Create instance. with cat1: # Modify instance variables. home = "Tucson" genus = "feline" name = "Garfield" >>> cat1.talk() My name is ... Garfield I am a feline from Tucson Mammal sound: Meow <__main__.Cat object at 0x00A894B0> >>> Changes from Current Python =========================== -- Keyword class is changed to proto. -- All methods have the same form, identical to a simple function. -- Function header lines are re-arranged. def --> : Parentheses are optional. -- self is replaced with a leading dot, and eliminated from the arg list. -- Current instance is available if ever needed via __self__ -- Instances can have their attributes modified in a with block. Benefits of Proposed Syntax =========================== -- Unification of all function forms ( bound, unbound, static, class, lambda ). All will have the same form as a normal function definition. This will make it easier to teach OOP. Students will already understand functions and modules. OOP is a small step up. A prototype will look just like a module ( except for the instance variables ). See Parallels between Prototypes and Modules below. -- Using an explicit __self__ variable avoids the magic first argument, and makes it easier to explain instance variables. See the sections below comparing a brief explanation of instance variables in Python vs the simplified form. A full presentation of OOP, like pages 295-390 in Learning Python, 2nd ed. will likely be 1/2 the number of pages. Not only is the basic presentation simpler, but we can eliminate a lot of discussion of lambda functions, static methods, etc. -- All attributes of a prototype ( both data and functions ) will be in a neat column, making it easier to find a particular attribute when visually scanning a program. Understanding the structure of a program will be almost as quick as seeing a UML diagram. -- Lambda keyword will be gone. An anonymous function using normal function syntax can be extremely compact. ( :x,y:x+y ) -- Method definitions will be less cluttered and less typing with __self__ as a hidden variable. -- Changing numerous attributes of an instance will be more convenient. ( need use case ) -- Migration of Python programs to Python 3 will be automatic and reliable. ??? Pros and Cons of the Proposed Syntax ==================================== Classlessness Con: The proposed syntax is not purely classless. This is important because ... ??? Unification of Methods and Functions Pro1: Less to learn. Con1: Experts don't care. Beginners don't need advanced method syntax. Pro2: Replace lambdas with standard function syntax. Con2: ??? Explicit __self__ Pro1: Allows the unification of methods and functions. Con1: ??? Pro2: Explanation of instance variables is simpler. Con2: Using __self__ instead of a special first argument is less explicit. Pro3: Less typing and less clutter in method definitions. Con3: Can use "s" or "_" instead of "self" to minimize typing and clutter. "Assignment" Syntax for Function Definitions Pro1: See all the variables at a glance in one column. Con1: ??? Pro2: Emphasize the similarity between data and functions as attributes of an object. Con2: ??? Symbol instead of def Keyword Pro: Allows lambda functions to be included in the unification. Con: Symbols are never as clear as keywords. With Block Pro: Saves typing the object name on each line. Con: Making it too easy to modify prototypes after they have been created will lead to more undisciplined programming. Issues relevant to teaching OOP =============================== Parallels between Prototypes and Modules ---------------------------------------- Ninety percent of what students need to know about prototypes is already understood from their study of functions and modules. Even some tricky issues are best explained by comparing to a parallel situation with modules. < snip > Explanation of Instance Variables in Python ------------------------------------------- """ Some of the variables inside the functions in a class have a self. prefix. This is to distinguish local variables in the function from "instance variables". These instance variables will be found when the function is called, by searching the instance which called the function. The way this works is that calling the function from an instance causes that instance to be passed as the first argument to the function call. So if you call cat1.talk(), that is equivalent to Cat.talk(cat1) If you call cat1.set_vars( "Garfield", "Meow"), that is equivalent to Cat.set_vars(cat1, "Garfield", "Meow") The "current instance" argument is auto-magically inserted as the first argument, ahead of any other arguments that you may provide in calling a method that is "bound" to an instance. Note: The distinction between instances and classes is important here. If you call a function from a class, that function is not bound to any instance, and you have to supply the instance explicitly in the first argument ( Cat.talk(cat1) ) The variable name self is just a convention. As long as you put the same name in the first argument as in the body of the definition, it can be self or s or even _ The single underscore is handy if you want to maximally suppress clutter. """ Explanation of Simplified Instance Variables -------------------------------------------- """ Some of the variables inside the functions in a prototype have a leading dot. This is to distinguish local variables in the function from "instance variables". When a function is called from an instance ( cat1.talk() ) a special global variable __self__ is automatically assigned to that instance ( __self__ = cat1 ) Then when the function needs an instance variable ( .sound ) it uses __self__ just as if you had typed it in front of the dot ( __self__.sound ) The leading dot is just an abbreviation to avoid typing __self__ everywhere. """ ========== END ==============

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Tkinter vs. wxPython?
by SeeBelow＠SeeBelow.Nut May 12, 2004

May 12, 2004

Do many people think that wxPython should replace Tkinter? Is this likely to happen? I ask because I have just started learning Tkinter, and I wonder if I should abandon it in favor of wxPython. Mitchell Timin -- "Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in pursuit of the goal." - Friedrich Nietzsche http://annevolve.sourceforge.net is what I'm into nowadays. Humans may write to me at this address: zenguy at shaw dot ca

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String/source code analysis tools
by Moosebumps May 11, 2004

May 11, 2004

I have a whole bunch of script files in a custom scripting "language" that were basically copied and pasted all over the place -- a huge mess, basically. I want to clean this up using Python -- and I'm wondering if there is any sort of algorithm for detecting copied and pasted code with slight modifications. i.e. a simple example: If I have two pieces of code like this: func1( a, b, c, 13, d, e, f ) func2( x, y, z, z ) and func1( a, b, c, 55, d, e, f ) func2( x, y, z, x ) I would like to be able to detect the redundancies. This is obviously a simple example, the real code is worlds messier -- say a 3 line script, each line has 800 characters, copied 10 times over with slight modifications among the 800 characters. I'm not exaggerating. So I'm wondering if there is any code out there that will assist me in refactoring this code. My feeling that a general solution this is very intractable, but I thought I'd ask. I'd probably have to roll my own based on the specifics of the situation. It is actually sort of like a diff algorithm maybe, but it wouldn't go line by line. How would I do a diff, token by token? I don't know anything about what algorithms diffs use. thanks, MB

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Python job opening at GPO in Washington, DC
by steve＠ferg.org May 11, 2004

May 11, 2004

For more info: http://jobsearch.usajobs.opm.gov/getjob.asp?JobID=21114613&AVSDM=2004%2D02%… I just saw this opening posted. It is a Federal government position (GS-13) at the Government Printing Office, Washington, DC, right across the street from where I work. 1. Extensive knowledge of object-oriented programming. 2. Extensive knowledge of XML and XSLT. 3. Extensive knowledge of Linux/Unix Operating Systems. 4. Extensive knowledge of either the Python and/or C Sharp language. 5. Expert knowledge of operating systems and programming languages in order to write and debug complex computer programs. 6. Ability to write detailed specifications for any new application need by the department. -- Steve Ferg (ferg_s(a)bls.gov)

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Arachno Python IDE
by Bror Johansson May 10, 2004

May 10, 2004

I can't remember having seen anything in this forum about Arachno Python IDE. (http://www.python-ide.com/arachno_python.php) Anyone tried it? Impressions? /BJ

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Re: Is Perl *that* good?
by Paramjit Oberoi May 10, 2004

May 10, 2004

> Asun> Regex is much more 'immediate' in Perl. > > Sure, it's syntactically bound into the language. There will always be an > extra constant overhead to enable regular expressions in Python. That If only compiled regular expression objects allowed easy access to the last match object, python regxes would become significantly more convenient. For example, today you have to write: m = myregex.match(line) if (m): xyz = m.group('xyz') It would be much easier to do: if myregex.match(line): xyz = myregex.lastm.group('xyz') Having to introduce a new variable name for a match object just muddles the code unnecessarily in common regex usage scenarios. -param

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