🌐 Mailman 3 October 2013 - Python-list - python.org

Re: First day beginner to python, add to counter after nested loop
by rusi Oct. 31, 2013

Oct. 31, 2013

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 2:37:31 AM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote: > Op 30-10-13 21:52, Ned Batchelder schreef: > > On 10/30/13 3:59 PM, Antoon Pardon wrote: > >> Op 30-10-13 20:13, Jonas schreef: > >>> No it isn't... > >>> The programmers of the tools on either of side will have to adapt. > >>> I wish it would be Google but it could be a database problem, but what do i know maybe their fucking with you. > >> Why should people who are using good functioning tools have to adapt to > >> someone, in this case being you, who is using tools that are behaving faulty and as an effect is polluting the news group with hard to read > >> contributions? > > Can I suggest that perhaps Jonas is someone best ignored? It's clear > > he is not willing to join the community, and does not value much of > > what we have to say. In addition, he seems to be above providing details > > for claims he makes. > Yes, you can suggest that. I might extend him the benefit of doubt for one > or two more exchanges, but if I don't notice any appearance of good will by > then I will in the future mostly ignore him. Couple of things I wish to say: 1. One of the tragedies of human relations is escalation: - I shout at you - You hit me - I shoot you - You bomb me and mine (and not remotely mine) out of existence - and so on If Mark had not been rude to Jonas and explained to him at a little more length, maybe he would not be assholing in full-blast. Or maybe not… Maybe he is just trolling… Just sayin': We dont really know 2. Antoon: I was a bit surprised at your siding with the indentation business. As an old-geezer programmer I can think of a number of reasons why, indentation=structure is a problem. Thats a subject for another thread. However for a thread whose subject-line says "First day beginner to python…" I am surprised that you (ie Antoon) participated. I say this since wrt the Nikos-issue, you seem to be the only sane guy around who feels the Nikos-threads are more the problem than Nikos. 3. I am posting this from GG. And NO hand cut-paste-edit. Firefox sends over the text to emacs. emacs auto-cleans up the GG crap When I exit emacs Im back in firefox with a clean text [Thanks Kushal for the tip] I dont expect Jonas to try or listen but there are thousands of other GG users And if there is some problem (textual please not political or philosophical!) I'd appreciate being told.

3 2

Re: RELEASED: Python 2.6.9 final
by Metallicow Oct. 30, 2013

Oct. 30, 2013

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:19:48 AM UTC-5, Skip Montanaro wrote: > > Thanks Barry for all the hard work. > > Ditto. Wish I still had my Guido van Rossum World Tour t-shirt! > > Skip try: BlackT() # http://www.python.org/~guido/images/IMG_2192.jpg except Exception as pocketT: EmbroiderOnPocketT(tColor=(0, 0, 0), pocketObj="PythonLogo")

1 1

small regexp help
by rusi Oct. 30, 2013

Oct. 30, 2013

Well it seems that we are considerably closer to a solution to the GG double-spaced crap problem. Just wondering if someone can suggest a cleanup of the regexp part Currently I have (elisp) (defun clean-gg () (interactive) 1 (replace-regexp "^> *\n> *\n> *$" "-=\=-" nil 0 (point-max)) 2 (flush-lines "> *$" 0 (point-max)) 3 (replace-regexp "-=\=-" "" nil 0 (point-max))) Which I spell out as: 1. Replace triplets of empty lines of the form > > > with only 1 (because this is an actual blank line and not a GG-crap line) However then it gets mixed up with the others so put some strange string: "-=\=-" as replacement 2. Remove the pure > lines 3. Remove the strange string. Not very robust since the strange string could occur in the text. So what are the more proper regexp solution(s)?

2 1

OT: Hierarchies (was Re: Possibly better loop construct, also labels+goto important and on the fly compiler idea.)
by Chris Angelico Oct. 30, 2013

Oct. 30, 2013

On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 1:53 PM, <rurpy(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > Your hierarchy is particularly unappealing to me. We all > know that such hierarchies exist in the real world, but > there is a question: should they be promoted as a natural > and desirable state of society to be encouraged? > > There are people like Ayn Rand who have argued they are > natural and should be encouraged. But I, having grown > up with the concepts of democracy, egalitarianism, and > individualism in which treatment I ask for I should also > extend to you, don't accept those views. In fact I > think they have a somewhat fascist odor. I don't wish > to participate in a culture or sub-culture in which such > "worth" hierarchies are promoted. Yes, I think they *should* be promoted... because that's simply how the world works. Democracies don't, fundamentally, work - they will always devolve into some form of hierarchy (maybe with the elected at the top, maybe with them at the bottom, maybe something else altogether). In most country-sized democracies, what you actually have is a hierarchy with a few elected people purportedly above it - consider the layers of bureaucracy between you and your elected leader (assuming you're in a democratic country - if you're not, imagine you were). The simplest way to be at the top of a branch of the tree is to create that branch. If I deploy a server, I own it and I can choose who's allowed to use it. Let's suppose I plonk down an instance of vBulletin or PHPBB or something, and get a discussion forum going. I can choose who's allowed to create accounts, who's allowed to post, who's allowed to read. Nobody would deny me the right to ban anyone I choose - right? It's my server, my forum, and I have the power to ban people. In fact, it's my job to ban the abusive users; normally that means only the bots and spammers, but it might mean someone who deliberately messes things up in other ways. I have to be king of that server. Of course, if I abuse that power, the community will quickly dissipate; nobody wants to stay under a tyrant. The second simplest way to get power is to be given it by someone who has it. Again in the example of a forum, I can appoint a moderator for some section, giving him/her the power to ban people, delete posts, etc. Both I (admin) and my moderators have the responsibility to use our power wisely; I'm responsible to the community as a whole, the mods are responsible to me, but otherwise it's the same thing. As a citizen, the power you have is to leave. That has a cost; sometimes that's a low cost, sometimes rather higher. Your power to "vote with your feet" is, ultimately, the thing that keeps the leaders in check - unless they want to be king of nothing, they have to entice people not to leave. Is it fascist to want control over my own server? Nope. You wouldn't expect that, as a user of www.google.com, you have an equal say in how it gets used - you wouldn't expect to be able to vote on IP bans. It's fundamentally NOT democratic. That's not to say that your views aren't respected - the best monarchies will always listen to their citizens - but you don't have a *vote*. Extending this to whole countries is a little harder, though, because of the problem of geography. It makes good sense for various laws to be instituted across a particular geographic area (say, whether you drive on the left or right hand side of the road), so you don't have the freedom to choose whose rule you'll be under. Broadly it still works the same way, though; if I create a new country (maybe by seceding from the one I'm geographically in - I believe that's legal according to Australian law, and there are other countries that make that an option), then my neighbours should be free to correspondingly secede and join my new country. Leaving has a cost, as above, but it happens to be a greater one when it means moving your whole life to a new location. As we see all the time in the world, people DO leave countries that become untenable; it just takes a stronger impetus than it would online, so people tend to feel more bound. The world is hierarchical. There's nothing wrong with that, except a perception. ChrisA

1 0

Algorithm that makes maximum compression of completly diffused data.
by jonas.thornvall＠gmail.com Oct. 30, 2013

Oct. 30, 2013

I am searching for the program or algorithm that makes the best possible of completly (diffused data/random noise) and wonder what the state of art compression is. I understand this is not the correct forum but since i think i have an algorithm that can do this very good, and do not know where to turn for such question i was thinking to start here. It is of course lossless compression i am speaking of.

8 7

Re: First day beginner to python, add to counter after nested loop
by jonas.thornvall＠gmail.com Oct. 30, 2013

Oct. 30, 2013

Den onsdagen den 30:e oktober 2013 kl. 17:22:23 UTC+1 skrev Mark Lawrence: > On 30/10/2013 15:57, jonas.thornvall(a)gmail.com wrote: > > > Den onsdagen den 30:e oktober 2013 kl. 16:54:19 UTC+1 skrev Mark Lawrence: > > >> On 30/10/2013 15:35, jonas.thornvall(a)gmail.com wrote: > > >> > > >>> Den onsdagen den 30:e oktober 2013 kl. 16:09:25 UTC+1 skrev Mark Lawrence: > > >> > > >>>> On 30/10/2013 14:31, jonas.thornvall(a)gmail.com wrote: > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Would you please be kind enough to read, digest and action this > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> TIA. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> -- > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Python is the second best programming language in the world. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Mark Lawrence > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> I am all for automatiation to be honest i rather go in change the code for google than do it manual. Maybe those who complain should adress Google? There must be a simple solution or? > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> The simplest solution is that you stop posting, as you've been spewing > > >> > > >> this double spaced crap all day and show no inclination to do anything > > >> > > >> about it. I assume that google won't fix their problem as there's not > > >> > > >> enough profit in it. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> Python is the second best programming language in the world. > > >> > > >> But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Mark Lawrence > > > > > > Bug of anal monkey either solve your own problems, or implement your own newsreader. > > > > > > > I have no need to implement a newsreader as I can quite happily send and > > receive data using Thunderbird. There are several other similar email > > options available. An alternative is for you to show others some > > courtesy and follow the instructions that would show just a few lines up > > from here, except that your insistence on using bug ridden technology > > means it's actually light years away. > > > > -- > > Python is the second best programming language in the world. > > But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer > > > > Mark Lawrence No that is not my problem, apparently so it is that the newsreader constructors do not like the competition of Google groups otherwise they would had written the five lines of codes necessary to remove the empty linebreaks. I like web based features, and i will use them until "they get it right, understood?" End of story

4 3

Re: Possibly better loop construct, also labels+goto important and on the fly compiler idea.
by rurpy＠yahoo.com Oct. 30, 2013

Oct. 30, 2013

On 10/29/2013 12:22 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 3:03 PM, <rurpy(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >> Regarding esr's "smart-questions", although I acknowledge >> it has useful advice, I have always found it elitist and >> abrasive. I wish someone would rewrite it without the >> "we are gods" attitude. > > I find it actually pretty appropriate. The attitude comes from a > hierarchy in which we are not at the top - but neither is esr. On the > roleplaying game Threshold, there's a help file about that, which > succinctly sums up what I'm trying to say, but it doesn't seem to be > on the web, so unless you want to telnet to thresholdrpg.com, create > an account, and type "help hierarchy" at the prompt, you can't see the > text of it. Oh well. :| Anyway, point is: We're in a hierarchy (or > actually several independent and unrelated ones), and being at the top > means (in the open source world) being everyone's servant; and the > people at the top simply don't have time to be _everyone's_ servant > personally, so they need some sous-servants to help them to help > people. (Obvious example of that in the Python community is Guido at > the top, other core committers and PEP writers and so on helping him, > and then the large crew of core question-answerers, bug triagers, > patch writers, etc, etc, etc.) You offer courtesy to those who are > above you; they're giving of their time freely, making themselves your > servants, and all they ask is that you make it easy for them to do so. > That's a pretty good deal for all of us at the bottom of the hierarchy This is a matter of philosophy and opinion so it is way off-topic and not something I want to continue discussing but... One doesn't offer courtesy in return for free software, one offers courtesy because the other person is a human being and with courtesy is how you'd like him to treat you. But in the open software world we're often not talking about demands for courtesy so much as for deference. The reasonable quid-pro-quo in open software is that developers get enjoyment of producing good stuff, voluntary respect and thanks, free feedback, bug reporting, patches. Users get good free software. There is no need for more than that. Your hierarchy is particularly unappealing to me. We all know that such hierarchies exist in the real world, but there is a question: should they be promoted as a natural and desirable state of society to be encouraged? There are people like Ayn Rand who have argued they are natural and should be encouraged. But I, having grown up with the concepts of democracy, egalitarianism, and individualism in which treatment I ask for I should also extend to you, don't accept those views. In fact I think they have a somewhat fascist odor. I don't wish to participate in a culture or sub-culture in which such "worth" hierarchies are promoted. Finally, your choice of a game based on feudal medieval standards of behavior and morality to explain your view does not help your argument IMO.

1 0

Re: function got multiple values for keyword argument for value
by KR Oct. 30, 2013

Oct. 30, 2013

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:34:19 PM UTC-7, Mark Lawrence wrote: > On 30/10/2013 21:10, > > > search(lane,value=None,start=105,stop=115,GUI=True) -> function definition > > > search(lane,value=value,start=start, stop=stop,GUI=True) -> function call > > > > > > I get the error "search()" got multiple keyword argument for value" > > > > > > I understand when this error comes up - if I had a function definition like below > > > > > > def func(a): > > > --- > > > > > > and if I called it as "func(0,a)" where I am passing 2 parameters instead of 1, I would end up with the error message. > > > > > > I dont follow why I get it when the number of arguments I am calling with the function call match the parameters in the definition. > > > > > > Please advise. > > > > > > > I suspect that you've a method rather than a function so I hope this > > helps > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18821193/typeerror-init-got-multiple-val… > > > > I also believe that you could be using google groups in which case would > > you please be kind enough to read, digest and action this > > https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython > Python is the second best programming language in the world. > But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer > Mark Lawrence Mark - I am not having an issue with __init__. It has nothing to do with "self". It is a user-defined function, but it is not __init__

2 3

Re: trying to strip out non ascii.. or rather convert non ascii
by wxjmfauth＠gmail.com Oct. 30, 2013

Oct. 30, 2013

Le mercredi 30 octobre 2013 13:44:47 UTC+1, Ned Batchelder a écrit : > On 10/30/13 4:49 AM, wxjmfauth(a)gmail.com wrote: > > > Le mardi 29 octobre 2013 06:24:50 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano a écrit : > > >> On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 09:23:41 -0500, Tim Chase wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> On 2013-10-28 07:01, wxjmfauth(a)gmail.com wrote: > > >>>>> Simply ignoring diactrics won't get you very far. > > >>>> Right. As an example, these four French words : cote, côte, coté, côté > > >>>> . > > >>> Distinct words with distinct meanings, sure. > > >>> But when a naïve (naive? ☺) person or one without the easy ability to > > >>> enter characters with diacritics searches for "cote", I want to return > > >>> possible matches containing any of your 4 examples. It's slightly > > >>> fuzzier if they search for "coté", in which case they may mean "coté" or > > >>> they might mean be unable to figure out how to add a hat and want to > > >>> type "côté". Though I'd rather get more results, even if it has some > > >>> that only match fuzzily. > > >> > > >> > > >> The right solution to that is to treat it no differently from other fuzzy > > >> > > >> searches. A good search engine should be tolerant of spelling errors and > > >> > > >> alternative spellings for any letter, not just those with diacritics. > > >> > > >> Ideally, a good search engine would successfully match all three of > > >> > > >> "naïve", "naive" and "niave", and it shouldn't rely on special handling > > >> > > >> of diacritics. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ------ > > > > > > This is a non sense. The purpose of a diacritical mark is to > > > make a letter a different letter. If a tool is supposed to > > > match an ô, there is absolutely no reason to match something > > > else. > > > > > > jmf > > > > > > > jmf, Tim Chase described his use case, and it seems reasonable to me. > > I'm not sure why you would describe it as nonsense. > > > > --Ned. -------- My comment had nothing to do with Python, it was a general comment. A diacritical mark just makes a letter a different letter; a "ï " and a "i" are "as diferent" as a "a" from a "z". A diacritical mark is more than a simple ornementation. >From a unicode perspective. Unicode.org "knows", these chars a very important, that's the reason why they exist in two forms, precomposed and composed forms. >From a software perspective. Luckily for the end users, all the serious software are considering all these chars in an equal way. They are all belonging to the BMP plane. An "Ą" is treated as an "ê", same memory consumption, same performance, ==> very smooth software. jmf

5 4

function got multiple values for keyword argument for value
by kavithabhaskaran2013＠gmail.com Oct. 30, 2013

Oct. 30, 2013

search(lane,value=None,start=105,stop=115,GUI=True) -> function definition search(lane,value=value,start=start, stop=stop,GUI=True) -> function call I get the error "search()" got multiple keyword argument for value" I understand when this error comes up - if I had a function definition like below def func(a): --- and if I called it as "func(0,a)" where I am passing 2 parameters instead of 1, I would end up with the error message. I dont follow why I get it when the number of arguments I am calling with the function call match the parameters in the definition. Please advise.

4 4