🌐 Mailman 3 October 2002 - Pythonmac-SIG - python.org

RE: [Pythonmac-SIG] Let's do it completely different!
by Schollnick, Benjamin Oct. 25, 2002

Oct. 25, 2002

Folks, I'm slowing going through the emails over the last couple of days... But, the major issue that I see is, do we continue to distribute a different python version than is included with v10.2.x, or do we patch Apple's version to extend it. Extending it is nice, and would probably allow us to reduce the size of MacPython installer..... But what happens when v10.3.xx comes out, and it has a newer version of python installed? What happens when we produce a bug fix version? In otherwords, we can patch and extend Apple's released version, but they are in control of it. We don't know their plans, and we could end up having to be able to patch numerous versions of Python in the wild. Being able to keep track of all the variants in the wild, and having patches and extensions could be more confusing than simply just running a single installer... Is there really a solid reason for us to not produce stand alone version? - Benjamin

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symbolic algebra; Jython
by Christopher Smith Oct. 25, 2002

Oct. 25, 2002

This is a followup to the August 2001 discussion about symbolic algebra systems. I found such a system that is more advanced than Pythonica...but it's written in java. But...I just completed an installation and successful test of Jython, a program which feels like Python but allows you to access java classes as if they were just another python module. Specifically, I did a test of the symbolic algebra manipulation system. After binding the Jython-21.jar with the option set to get stdin from the Message Window (and otherwise typing in everything as specified at http://www.jython.org/MacOS_Install.html) I was able to create a working Jython application. I put the symbolic folder in the same folder as the newly created Jython application and then successfully ran through the small test suite found in mathtest.java which is part of the symbolic algebra system download: #### Jython 2.1 on java1.1.8 (JIT: MRJ22Jitc.01) Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> from symbolic import * m=Math_interpreter() #create an instance of >>> the manipulator m.calculate("DIFF(SINH(x^2),x)") #derivative of >>> sinh(x^2) wrt x '(((2*x)*exp(x^2))+((exp(-x^2)*x)*2))/2' >>> m.setOutputMode(Math_interpreter.TEX_OUTPUT) m.getLastResult() '\\frac{{{{2}{x}}{exp\\left({{x}^{2}}\\right)}}+{{{exp\\left({-{x}^{2}} \\right)}{x}}{2}}}{2}' >>> m.setOutputMode(Math_interpreter.INFIX_OUTPUT) >>> m.calculate("INT(x^2*SIN(x),x)") '(2*((sin(x)*x)+cos(x)))-(x^2*cos(x))' >>> m.setOutputMode(Math_interpreter.STRUCTURED_OUTPUT) >>> m.getLastResult() ' 2 \n2 (sin(x) x + cos(x)) - x cos(x) \n' >>> print _ #let's see it printed not repr'ed 2 2 (sin(x) x + cos(x)) - x cos(x) >>> #### A demo of a java applet online which allows you to manipulate algebraic expressions is located along with the reference page at http://www.mb.hs-wismar.de/Mitarbeiter/Pawletta/00Uwe/formel.html. The symbolic folder of classes can be downloaded from http://www.mb.hs-wismar.de/Mitarbeiter/Pawletta/00Uwe/symjpack.tar.gz (a quick download at only 36 K). Jython and directions for the MacOS installation are at http://www.jython.org/MacOS_Install.html; the Jython home, from where versions for other systems can be downloaded is at http://www.jython.org/index.html. /c

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Reply-To on lists
by Michael Hudson Oct. 25, 2002

Oct. 25, 2002

Chris Barker <Chris.Barker(a)noaa.gov> writes: > Michael Hudson wrote: > > Does anyone > > > know why the replyto field is not set to the list? > > > > Because setting reply-to on lists is evil. > > I've experienced a number of auto-reply feedback loops on mailing lists, > but not for a long while. A number of other lists I'm on (wxPython, for > example) have reply-to set tot he list, and it works just fine. Someone > must ahve figured out how to filter out the auto-replies. Well the evilness I was thinking of was that I've *I* set Reply-To: in my mails and the list sets one, mine gets clobbered. > I do know that I have accidentally sent replies to only the sender on > this list a lot. Maybe I'm jsut to absent minded. All together now: "Get a better mail client." :-) Cheers, M. -- Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody thinks of complaining. -- Jeff Raskin

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RE: [Pythonmac-SIG] Let's do it completely different!
by Bugbee, Larry Oct. 25, 2002

Oct. 25, 2002

If I'm preaching to the choir, apologies, but this has been on my mind. At the end of the day, the typical Mac user is going to expect simplicity, convenience, consistency, elegance, and all that stuff. Having two copies of Python creates confusion especially when it comes to upgrading versions or adding libraries. ...and wondering which one is invoked when they launch an app. Not good. These folks are not developers, most will never be, but many do poke around and discover what is on their box. They constitute upwards of 95% of all the Mac users; developers are numerous but still the minority. These users are the ones most of us will be targeting when we write our apps. Our apps will have version and library dependencies. Our users need an honest opportunity to resolve those issues, and they expect simplicity, convenience, consistency, elegance et al in the process. Strive for one system copy of Python with a relatively complete set of libraries. *Allow* the user to also install a local copy if they want, but in the name of simplicity, discourage it. Most users will not only accept that, but thank you for it. They need to readily know that when they need to add a library, all they have to do is drop it onto an icon (like adding an extension in OS9). They need to know these things, but all this must be communicated without written instructions. This is what Mac users expect. Most Mac users' manuals are still in shrinkwrap. There is a reason why. Please, keep it simple... for the user!!! Maybe 2.3 will address this... I hope so. ...Apple? Are you lurking? If you can help, please do. Larry PS: I would offer that it might be nice that if a couple of copies of Python did wind up on a user's machine, it was for the reason that they were simply different versions (2.2, 2.3, etc) and that the Python interpreters were smart enough to detect version dependencies and cause another interpreter to take over. This could simplify rollovers.

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Let's do it completely different!
by William Dozier Oct. 25, 2002

Oct. 25, 2002

On Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002, at 03:26PM, kevin parks <kp87(a)lycos.com> wrote: >Beside the terminal is a pretty cool app and *ever* mac will already >have one! Or not. Isn't the "BSD layer" install optional? Bill

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Re: Let's do it completely different!
by kevin parks Oct. 25, 2002

Oct. 25, 2002

>> Nor are they something to be *expected* of people to use, not if you're >> aiming at the Mac user base. I don't think that there is a single "the user" base anymore. Everybody thinks that "the user base" are folks who are allergic to the shell and are nostalgic for our old, dead end OS. I am not sure it will always be that way. I am sure a significant faction (and a large percentage of those using python) will change their habits and work much more like NeXT users used to. Let's face it OS X is much more like NeXT than it is like OS 9. And thank goodness for it. Sure the Mac had a more elegant interface. Slightly better interface, but a much less powerful platform to work on. >> > 2. Anyone savvy enough to be writing python scripts is smart enough >> > to open the terminal and type % cd /usr/local/bin ; ls >> Not necessarily. Lots of people have been using MacPython on OS 9 or >> quite happily for some time without doing any of that. Mostly because the couldn't i would guess. I am guessing that you average Mac Python user in the future will be shell & Unix savvy. Beside the terminal is a pretty cool app and *ever* mac will already have one! > I think that we are bending over backwards to do something really > unimportant here. > > repeat after me: Unix good, csh powerful, OS 9 goodbye Unix good, csh > powerful, OS 9 goodbye > > Unix good, csh powerful, OS 9 goodbye .... >> Then get a linux box, if you really believe that. People are not buying >> into OSX because they can get a command line, but because they can get a >>> command line AND a rich, well designed, deep GUI interface. I am. I am using X because linux is a pain, i have mac hardware, and because i loved the NeXT. I want the commandline, the dev tools, the protected memory, the job control. Frankly, i want UNIX. OS X is flawed and still barely out of the beta stage, but my long Mac OS system 7 to system 9 nightmare is over. I have never restarted a machine so much in my entire life, and having to click get info and set how much memory to give an app and have that app just sit on that memory when it is idle, that is frankly just plain stupid. That is exactly the type of thing the OS is supposed to handle for you. >> The whole point of OSX is not to banish all that came before, but to >> move forward with it: witness the things (spring-loaded folders) they're >> still adding back. Uh, there is just as much missing as is being added back. labels, windowshade. Plus the "finder" is just a glorified NeXT browser, and the dock. I mean let's make peace with it, we've got NeXTStep with classic patched in. Personally i would like to see MacPython be more like an adapted UNIX python than the old MacPython. It is a personal preference i know. But it's just my 2¢. >> As it stands, Python on OSX is still a rather large step *backwards* >> from Python on OS9, in terms of functionality and ease of use for the >> average 'Download the installer and double-click on it' user, and that >> is a necessary goal of development. I don't see UNIX python as a large step back from MacPython. I was always jealous of windoze, & Unix python programmers. I have a feeling that under OS X python will no longer be so "different". Heck, we might even get more than one IDE. I love Jack and Just and am grateful for all the work they did (& do), but i am so glad for the new UNIX-y horizon. You want to experience a HUGE step back? Unix to Mac OS 7.5.3. That my friend was like going back to the dark ages. I've waited ten years to say this: Mac folks, you now know what NeXT users felt --banishment. > OS-X appeals to folks that don't want to type things on the command line. Not entirely true. Besides, i could just as easily argue that Python appeals to people who like to use a command line. It was born there and still reinvets itself there everytime Guido fires up his Sparcstation. >> I envision using Python to write all >> sorts of littel applets and scripts for my wortk, and I want to be able >> to distribute them to my non-programmer co-workers easily. Having an >> easy-to install Python distibution is key to this. I never thought that OS 9 MacPython was all that easy to install, or set up either. Wasn't impossible, but in someways OS X is already ahead of OS 9 in this respect. If your applet requires python, OS 9 was a bit of a hassle. OS X already comes with python and even if it didn't what is easier than fink? >>> repeat after me: Unix good, csh powerful, OS 9 goodbye >>> Unix good, csh powerful, OS 9 goodbye >> Believe me, that is my constant mantra, but if OS-X offers anything that >> Linux doesn't, it's the "Mac experience", and people do like that. I still think it is more like UNIX/BSD/NeXT than old mac, in both good ways and bad (please shoot the idiot who decided windowshadding wasn't needed, the dock sucks almost as bad as it did on NeXTStep, etc.) Anyway, i am just going to let this drop now as i think it (*sorry*) is not helpful or of interest to all on the list. I guess what i am just trying to do is voice an opinion about the direction of Mac Python and argue that Mac Python's should reflect a UNIX heritage at least as much as it shows its drag dropping history. sorry, i'll go away now. ____________________________________________________________ Get 250 full-color business cards FREE right now! http://businesscards.lycos.com

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Unix vs. Mac
by Jack Jansen Oct. 24, 2002

Oct. 24, 2002

Well well, this unix-vs-mac discussion is the closest we've had to a flamewar since the SIG's inception (and, luckily, still much closer to reasoned discussion than to a flamewar). I just want to let everyone know that whatever I distribute as MacPython-OSX will have two faces: on the one hand there will be a 100% normal unix-Python available somewhere for people who know and love unix[1], on the other hand it will be possible to do everything a long time long time Mac user may want to do without ever having to touch the Terminal window[2]. The footnotes: [1] In one distribution this may be the pre-installed /usr/bin/python. In another distribution it may be a normal Python but living in a funny /Library/Frameworks location, but aside from that be 100% normal. [2] Users should be able to install/uninstall modules (and MacPython itself), for instance. An exception may be made for packages that come as C source: for these the user will have to load the developer tools anyway (which MacPython will not require) so I assume by the time they've crossed that bridge they should have lost their fear of the shell. -- - Jack Jansen <Jack.Jansen(a)oratrix.com> http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman -

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Re: Pythonmac-SIG digest, Vol 1 #1254 - 8 msgs
by kevin parks Oct. 24, 2002

Oct. 24, 2002

> One of Alex's statements was that Apple might > ship whatever it is we (or Jack anyway :-) ) build, > so we can have both the > best possible Python runtime, AND have it be a > standard part of OS-X. I hope he's right! I sure hope so too, but isn't important to know this before hand? Are the folks who are incharge of Python builds @ Apple even watching this list and talking to Jack? I wish that they tool as much interest in Python as they did with TCL/TK. -kp (holding his tongue) -- ____________________________________________________________ Get 250 full-color business cards FREE right now! http://businesscards.lycos.com

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IDE Replace Text Bug
by Larry Meyn Oct. 24, 2002

Oct. 24, 2002

I've just encountered a bug in the IDE when replacing text. When I do a replace all, I get the message "replaced N occurrences" but it appears that no changes have been made, the text displayed is not altered. However, saving the file and reopening that file shows the text as it should. Apparently, the displayed text is not being updated after a replace all. I'm using the Oct. 12 2.2.1b+ Carbon version under OS X 10.2.1 on an G4, AGP Macintosh. Larry Meyn Aerospace Operations Modeling Office M/S 210-10 Phone: (650) 604-5038 NASA Ames Research Center Fax: (650) 604-0222 Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000 E-mail: lmeyn(a)mail.arc.nasa.gov E-Fax: (425) 944-5526 sent via e-mail

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Doing it differently: Module management / installation
by Michael Hudson Oct. 24, 2002

Oct. 24, 2002

Chris Barker <Chris.Barker(a)noaa.gov> writes: > Oops, I sent my last note to Bill, rather than the list. Does anyone > know why the replyto field is not set to the list? Because setting reply-to on lists is evil. Cheers, M. -- Richard Gabriel was wrong: worse is not better, lying is better. Languages and systems succeed in the marketplace to the extent that their proponents lie about what they can do. -- Tim Bradshaw, comp.lang.lisp

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