🌐 Mailman 3 December 2003 - Pythonmac-SIG - python.org

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python for OSX programming beginner?
by Russell E Owen March 20, 2005

March 20, 2005

>Been lurking here for a while and quietly observing. > >I am looking for a programming language and preferably and IDE for a >young nephew wanting to dip his toes in the programming pool... >Is Python worth further investigating and how good are the IDEs? >Is there something along the lines of REALbasic VisualBasic >integrated interface/code style IDE available? >What are the specialities limits of the language? >Why learn Python rather than battle on and master C or more >particularly Objective C ? >Rather difficult to answer, but how different is the learning curve? > >Many thanks for any help. Hmmm...I suggest the following: Smalltalk: Squeak and VisualWorks NC are both free (the latter only for noncommercial use). Smalltalk is a lovely, simple really powerful language that includes: - powerful IDE and class browser with integrated debugger; smalltalk has the best development environment I've ever seen for a language because it includes live debugging, live changing of classes (want to fix a method? go ahead; the change propagates; fix it and continue on the fly) - really simple yet powerful language; one of the most elegant languges I've seen, though the syntax is a bit different than C and Python programmers are used to - very rich class library, including one of the nicest collection classes (lists, sets, etc.) available Between these two, squeak is smaller and more fun and includes a nifty GUI called Morphic; however it all runs in one big window (very non-Mac like). VisualWorks is more Mac-like (at least on a Mac) and more mature, but is much larger. Both are fully cross-platform (write once, run everywhere). One limitation to smalltalk is that it's not much good for simple scripting, hence simple text processing scripts and such. Python really shines there, so... Python. This is a really nice language and he'll be able to go far with it. However, based on what you said above, some of its limitations make me nervous: - there is no really well integrated GUI, unlike the suggestions above. You can do GUI programming, but you have to choose a 3rd party package and they are fully powerful, but the two main ones (Tkinter and wxPython) are somewhat clumsy and poorly documented. - hence there is no really first rate IDE (not to put down the IDEs that are there, but in comparison to smalltalk or RealBasic...) Note: python is built into MacOS X 10.2, but it's an outdated version missing some of the things that make the language sane (such as readlines support and a GUI package). Install the missing items or a better package (if you've been reading you've seen various options for that including at least one recent binary installer). I suggest learning those two (since their few weaknesses are complimentary), but you could also consider: Buy RealBasic. The knowledge is well worth the money! It's not a wonderful language, but not so bad either and if he already knows it, well...that's a huge leg up. Java. Not sure what the IDE situation is for MacOS X, but the language is reasonable (much saner than C++). The problem is that the need to declare the type of all objects makes it a clumsy and messy language compared to Python and Smalltalk. I suggest NOT using C++. The language is too arcane and messy. The object model is insanely complicated and the pitfalls fill volumes. Learn to program first, then learn C++ later if you really have to. -- Russell

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WebKit, SVG
by Dinu Gherman Oct. 4, 2004

Oct. 4, 2004

Hi, recently I played a bit with Konfabulator, some kind of a "widget framework" for OS X, which looks very nice at the beginning. But after a while it seemed to me that despite the very good idea, its implementation is kind of using the wrong technology. They try to make it very simple to define widgets by specifying them in XML and adding behaviour in Javascript code. This is done in some very strange way, though, like putting the Javascript code insinde XML comments, which is the recommended way of doing it! Well, I think SVG and Python would be the better combination, so I wonder if Apple's WebKit is any good in making use of Adobe's SVG renderer plug-in, somehow? Of course, then we'd still need some bridge to Python, but you need to start somewhere... Dinu PS: www.konfabulator.com -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "The thing that impresses me the most about America is the way parents obey their children." (King Edward VIII)

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ANN: Preview of SystemConfiguration wrapper
by Bob Ippolito April 2, 2004

April 2, 2004

http://undefined.org/python/SystemConfiguration-0.1.tar.gz This is a source distribution, it requires PyObjC and Developer Tools. The wrapper itself is (entirely) an ObjC framework, but it includes everything necessary for Python wrapping. I haven't done any documentation, real tests, especially testing of the runloop integration.. but here it is if someone wants to play with it. The ObjC is a little sloppy (three classes in one file), and the setup.py is a lot sloppy (thanks to distutils being not easily extensible), but it works.. or at least it should. I'll be adding stuff from MoreSCF, probably tomorrow, and writing more tests/examples and possibly some documentation over the next couple days. -bob

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[ann] AppScripting 0.3.0
by has Feb. 23, 2004

Feb. 23, 2004

Hi all, New version of AppScripting is available: http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/AppScripting-0.3.0.tar.gz Now handles AE and application classes and enumerated types sensibly, and implements almost complete support for by-test references (a.k.a. 'whose clauses'). Still lots to do, but seems like a good point to post and solicit some feedback [1] before Christmas. Cheers, has [1] That there's a cue, btw...;) -- http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/

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MacPython 2.3.3 - Candidate available
by Jack Jansen Jan. 2, 2004

Jan. 2, 2004

Folks, a candidate installer for MacPython 2.3.3 for Jaguar is available at <http://ftp.cwi.nl/jack/python/mac/newer/MacPython-OSX-2.3.3-1.dmg>. Please give it a try and report back here with success or failure, and once I have enough positive feedback (and no negative:-) I'll announce it. I'm working on 2.3.3 for OS9 too, but I'm hampered quite a bit by the fact that I seem to have completely forgotten how OS9 works:-)

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Re: XDTQN, evening will have
by Harlan Kern Dec. 31, 2003

Dec. 31, 2003

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Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] building extensions for 2.3 (darwin build), and UUID generation
by Paul Miller Dec. 31, 2003

Dec. 31, 2003

>>Interesting, but a rather big way of implementing this. I just need 2 >>function calls from the UUID API. I'll keep trying to get my own >>extension module buildling. > >"rather big"? You need to learn the principle of least time wasted ;) >Besides, the framework is 40k tarballed and 284k uncompressed. I was looking at the full download size, but my situation is more complicated than that. This is software being developed for another company, so then it becomes an issue of where to install the framework and how to give credit in documentation I have no control over. Also, add on the time it takes me to learn how to use the Mac Python ObjC interfaces to actually USE the API, and we're straddling a fine line between a bunch of wasted time no matter which way you look at it. Since I already have a working code and suitable module init code, it FEELS like getting my module working would be slightly easier. Obviously, it is not turning out that way!

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Re: IL, lighter type with
by Ewing Dec. 31, 2003

Dec. 31, 2003

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Quicktime digitizer in python
by Wesley Fraser Dec. 30, 2003

Dec. 30, 2003

Hey. I wish to access the macam driver in python using the qt module. Does anyone know how to do this or know where I could look for information on this? Thanks Wes

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Re: X11 and Tkinter (was: Beginner's questions)
by Jack Jansen Dec. 30, 2003

Dec. 30, 2003

On 30-dec-03, at 19:19, Russell E Owen wrote: >> On 29-dec-03, at 18:19, Russell E Owen wrote: >>>> Note that you can also do this without installing a second Python. >>>> If >>>> you put _tkinter.so for X11 in, say, ~/Library/X11-Python and you >>>> add >>>> that directory to $PYTHONPATH. You could create a script x11python >>>> containing >>>> >>>> #!/bin/sh >>>> PYTHONPATH=~/Library/X11-Python:$PYTHONPATH >>>> exec /usr/bin/python "$@" >>>> >>>> should do the trick, I think (untested). >>> >>> That is a very interesting idea. I suppose one could do an x11 build >>> of python, extract _tkinter.so and then discard the build, thus >>> saving disk space and clutter over keeping two builds. But...might >>> there some simpler way to obtain an x11-based _tkinter.so? >> >> Actually, it would be reasonably simple to create a PackMan package >> that contains an X11 _tkinter, puts it in >> /Library/Python/2.3/X11-Python and puts an x11python script in >> /usr/local/bin. >> >> How much interest would there be in such a thing? > > I would gladly use it. > > But it does raise a few issues that I fear may make it too much work > to justify the effort: > - One would need an X11 build of Tcl/Tk, making installation a bit > complicated. I don't know of any MacOS X binary installer for X11 > Tcl/Tk (other than fink). Bah, I forgot about that:-( That makes it too much work, indeed. Unless someone can provide an installer that installs X11 Tcl/Tk, that is. > - How would it work with packages that rely on Tkinter, such as IDLE? > Could they easily be convinced to run "either way" (x11 or aqua) or > would one need a separate build of each? This shouldn't be too much of a problem, only one of organisation. Depending on which _tkinter comes first in sys.path you'll get X11-Tk or Aqua-Tk. -- Jack Jansen, <Jack.Jansen(a)cwi.nl>, http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman

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