🌐 Mailman 3 October 2004 - Pythonmac-SIG - python.org

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python for OSX programming beginner?
by Russell E Owen March 20, 2005

March 20, 2005

>Been lurking here for a while and quietly observing. > >I am looking for a programming language and preferably and IDE for a >young nephew wanting to dip his toes in the programming pool... >Is Python worth further investigating and how good are the IDEs? >Is there something along the lines of REALbasic VisualBasic >integrated interface/code style IDE available? >What are the specialities limits of the language? >Why learn Python rather than battle on and master C or more >particularly Objective C ? >Rather difficult to answer, but how different is the learning curve? > >Many thanks for any help. Hmmm...I suggest the following: Smalltalk: Squeak and VisualWorks NC are both free (the latter only for noncommercial use). Smalltalk is a lovely, simple really powerful language that includes: - powerful IDE and class browser with integrated debugger; smalltalk has the best development environment I've ever seen for a language because it includes live debugging, live changing of classes (want to fix a method? go ahead; the change propagates; fix it and continue on the fly) - really simple yet powerful language; one of the most elegant languges I've seen, though the syntax is a bit different than C and Python programmers are used to - very rich class library, including one of the nicest collection classes (lists, sets, etc.) available Between these two, squeak is smaller and more fun and includes a nifty GUI called Morphic; however it all runs in one big window (very non-Mac like). VisualWorks is more Mac-like (at least on a Mac) and more mature, but is much larger. Both are fully cross-platform (write once, run everywhere). One limitation to smalltalk is that it's not much good for simple scripting, hence simple text processing scripts and such. Python really shines there, so... Python. This is a really nice language and he'll be able to go far with it. However, based on what you said above, some of its limitations make me nervous: - there is no really well integrated GUI, unlike the suggestions above. You can do GUI programming, but you have to choose a 3rd party package and they are fully powerful, but the two main ones (Tkinter and wxPython) are somewhat clumsy and poorly documented. - hence there is no really first rate IDE (not to put down the IDEs that are there, but in comparison to smalltalk or RealBasic...) Note: python is built into MacOS X 10.2, but it's an outdated version missing some of the things that make the language sane (such as readlines support and a GUI package). Install the missing items or a better package (if you've been reading you've seen various options for that including at least one recent binary installer). I suggest learning those two (since their few weaknesses are complimentary), but you could also consider: Buy RealBasic. The knowledge is well worth the money! It's not a wonderful language, but not so bad either and if he already knows it, well...that's a huge leg up. Java. Not sure what the IDE situation is for MacOS X, but the language is reasonable (much saner than C++). The problem is that the need to declare the type of all objects makes it a clumsy and messy language compared to Python and Smalltalk. I suggest NOT using C++. The language is too arcane and messy. The object model is insanely complicated and the pitfalls fill volumes. Learn to program first, then learn C++ later if you really have to. -- Russell

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(no subject)
by Keith Nemitz Dec. 6, 2004

Dec. 6, 2004

>> >> >> huh? I mean does everyone use[-3:] instead and 0 is taboo? I'm used >> to the Icon programming language where "food"[-3:0] returns --> ood > > "food"[-3:] is equivalent to "food"[-3:None] (that is, literally, how > it works out internally) > > "food"[-3:0] is just backwards :) If anything, it should give you > "oof", but that's too confusing. > > -bob > Thank you. I knew there had to be a reason. If you think about lists as ring buffers, however, then "food"[-3:0]-->"ood" makes plenty of sense and can be very useful. My case that started this whole thread had to do with iterating from negative to positive, returning larger substrings on each iteration. It broke with the zero index. So I had to special case it. sigh, I wonder if adding this 'concept' to python (indexing lists as ring buffers) would break any existing code... Heck while I'm at it, changing the language, might as well add nested comments, and (my personal favorite) record names, implemented like this: record <tuple of enums> tuple of enums ::= (<enum> [,enum]*) enum ::= <string>[= <int>] ...such that the keyword 'record' turns the strings into module and/or class scoped indexes. Isn't it fun to dream? Keith Nemitz

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Python 2.3.4 Installation
by Samuel M.Smith Nov. 28, 2004

Nov. 28, 2004

There isn't much on the new 2.3.4 Mac Python. Does 2.3.4 fix the problem where you couldn't have any framework version but the one that came with OSX (in this case 2.3 for Panther) ?. Does the install from source replace 2.3? There were a lot of posts about problems building extensions and stuff with a different version etc. Have those issues been resolved? More of a what is the current state of Python 2.3.4 framework on os x 10.3.5?

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ANN: py2app / bdist_mpkg 0.1.5 preview
by Bob Ippolito Nov. 2, 2004

Nov. 2, 2004

I've put together a little preview of py2app 0.1.5, which has MAJOR feature enhancements over 0.1.4. http://undefined.org/python/py2app-0.1.5.mpkg.zip (installer for Mac OS X 10.3) http://svn.red-bean.com/bob/py2app/trunk (source repository) http://svn.red-bean.com/pyobjc/branches/py2app-branch/ (PyObjC repository refactored to use py2app and bdist_mpkg) py2app: non-ascii application names works now (e.g. Jäger) support for non-framework builds of Python (e.g. darwinports) slightly more documentation (INSTALLING.txt, README.txt) PyPI information enhanced setup.py that can use bdist_mpkg builds and installs the py2applet tool as part of its bdist_mpkg script (to /Developer/Applications/Python Tools/py2app/) installs the examples to /Developer/Python/py2app/Examples bdist_mpkg: It's new! bdist_mpkg is a distutils command that builds a metapackage for Installer.app (or /usr/sbin/installer). It's part of the py2app suite. It should work with ANY distutils-using Python module or application that uses distutils and doesn't really screw up their "install" command When using bdist_mpkg with a framework Python, it will default the scripts installation dir to /usr/local/bin instead of the middle of nowhere inside the Python framework It installs a script, /usr/local/bin/bdist_mpkg, which you can use to build metapackages from any setup.py. When the metapackage is built, it will even open Installer for you (unless you pass it any --options, or just --). This is a great alternative to using python setup.py install. You can just customize and uncheck scripts, headers, etc. if you don't want to install them. You can subclass bdist_mpkg and make it do crazy things, like install documentation, code examples, or applications. See py2app's setup-lib/py2app_mpkg.py or PyObjC's setup-lib/pyobjc_mpkg.py (on the py2app-branch) bdist_mpkg should become the "guts" of the next generation PackageManager instead of bdist_dumb tarballs. will automatically determine if root permissions are required to install the package (make sure you haven't mucked with your permissions your build machine if you plan on distributing the metapackages) After the dust settles a bit, probably this weekend, I'll do a more official release... but I would like to get some feedback in the meantime. -bob

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Numeric headers
by Craig Amundsen Nov. 1, 2004

Nov. 1, 2004

Hi - I'm trying to install rpy on my 10.3.5 system. I've gotten R to complile (woo!). Now I'm trying to get rpy installed. It needs to compile against the Numeric headers. I've got Bob's Numeric 23.1 binary installed, but alas it does not include the headers. I've tried to compile 23.6 but it can't find lapack. I've read multiple discussions about getting compliling Numeric on OS X, but the closest I've gotten to a howto is the observation that the setup.py from 23.x is broken for OS X and that examination of the 22.0 setup.py should provide sufficient clues to fix the 23.x file. I've tried this and while it takes longer to fail, it still fails. Has anyone out there managed to modify the 23.x setup.py to get a successful build? If so, could you share your secrets with a distutil-er of very small brain? TIA, - Craig

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Nib-less program success
by Dethe Elza Oct. 30, 2004

Oct. 30, 2004

Hi folks, I just wanted to share some recent successes I've had with PyObjC. First, Bob, I've been using py2app and it's working wonderfully. I'm very happy with the improvements you've made over the old bundlebuilder method. I've also decided it was time to take a look at Renaissance more closely. I really like the way it's designed, much more like HTML than most XML UI resource tools, which tend to be more like Java with XML syntax. So far I have only scratched the surface, but I'm already impressed. I was not able to find any examples of using Renaissance from PyObjC without using Nibs as well. One of the (at least 4) forks of DrawBot uses Renaissance to build UI widgets and sheets, but it still uses Nibs for the main application. I was trying to get Renaissance working without Nibs and crashing Python, about to give up when I tried one more thing and it worked, so I thought I'd share. First, here is the main menu file, which can be re-used as the basis for most applications, and is mostly copied directly from the Renaissance CurrencyConverter example. ============ begin file MainMenu.gsmarkup =================== <?xml version="1.0"?> <!DOCTYPE gsmarkup> <gsmarkup> <objects> <menu type="main"> <menu title="RenTest" type="apple"> <menuItem title="About RenTest" action="orderFrontStandardAboutPanel:"/> <menuSeparator/> <menu title="Services" type="services"/> <menuSeparator/> <menuItem title="Hide RenTest" action="hide:" key="h"/> <menuItem title="Hide Others" action="hideOtherApplications:"/> <menuItem title="Show All" action="unhideAllApplications:"/> <menuSeparator/> <menuItem title="Quit RenTest" action="terminate:" key="q"/> </menu> <menu title="Edit"> <menuItem title="Cut" action="cut:" key="x"/> <menuItem title="Copy" action="copy:" key="c"/> <menuItem title="Paste" action="paste:" key="v"/> <menuItem title="Delete" action="delete:"/> <menuItem title="Select All" action="selectAll:" key="a"/> </menu> <menu title="Window" type="windows"> <menuItem title="Minimize Window" action="performMiniatureize:" key="m"/> <menuSeparator/> <menuItem title="Bring All to Front" action="arrangeInFront:"/> </menu> </menu> </objects> </gsmarkup> ============ end file MainMenu.gsmarkup =================== Next is the small test window, drawn directly from Renaissance documentation: ============ begin file MainWindow.gsmarkup =================== <?xml version="1.0"?> <!DOCTYPE gsmarkup> <gsmarkup> <objects> <window title="Button Test" closable="NO" frameAutosaveName="main" > <button title="Click this button to quit" action="terminate:"/> </window> </objects> </gsmarkup> ============ end file MainWindow.gsmarkup =================== And here is the Python code to run it. The cut: command is implemented as a no-op to demonstrate how the menu commands automatically become enabled when their controller implements the selector specified in the gsmarkup file. The two gsmarkup files are loaded in separate areas of the code to demonstrate how easy it is to load from markup. ============ begin file RenTest.py =================== from Foundation import * from AppKit import * from Renaissance import * from PyObjCTools.AppHelper import runEventLoop class MyApplicationDelegate(NSObject): def cut_(self, sender): pass def applicationDidFinishLaunching_(self, notification): NSBundle.loadGSMarkupNamed_owner_('MainWindow', self) def main(): app = NSApplication.sharedApplication() delegate = MyApplicationDelegate.alloc().init() app.setDelegate_(delegate) NSBundle.loadGSMarkupNamed_owner_('MainMenu', delegate) NSApp().run() if __name__ == '__main__': main() ============ end file RenTest.py =================== Putting it all together is done using py2app: ============ begin file setup.py =================== ''' Minimal setup.py example, run with: % python setup.py py2app ''' from distutils.core import setup import py2app setup( data_files = ['MainMenu.gsmarkup', 'MainWindow.gsmarkup'], app = ['RenTest.py'], ) ============ end file setup.py =================== Finally, after putting the Renaissance.framework in /Library/Frameworks I've also put the following in /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ site-packages/Renaissance/ to enable Renaissance globally on my system. ============ begin file __init__.py =================== import objc, AppKit, Foundation objc.loadBundle('Renaissance', globals(), bundle_path='/Library/Frameworks/Renaissance.framework') del objc, AppKit, Foundation ============ end file __init__.py =================== OK, that's it. About 79 lines of code to have a simple app with menus and a window and basic Mac app behaviour (hide, minimize, Cmd-H, Cmd-Q, etc.). Why do I care about avoiding Nibs? Two main reasons. Interface Builder is great as far as it goes, but it has a steep learning curve to use it well. And when I'm developing an application and want to refactor it, or rapidly iterate through several tests, I have trouble finding everywhere in Interface Builder that a certain outlet or selector is used, to change the target or the selector. And because it stores serialized objects, it doesn't pick up changes to my code unless I force it to. I'm afraid I prefer a format I can grep to a visual one (IB for Renaissance is in progress I understand, which would be great -- I'm not constitutionally opposed to graphic layout tools, I just don't like them being enforced). So using Renaissance addresses my problems in using IB. The second reason is that I see Cocoa examples on the web (either ObjC or PyObjC) which go like this: "Look, I can make an [editor, web-browser, etc.] with only 5 lines of code!" followed by 25 screen shots of IB with paragraphs of instructions for wiring up the widgets and outlets to the 5 lines of code. This seems disingenuous to me, and it's fragile because the examples which worked with the last version of IB don't necessarily reflect the current (or next) version. Maybe it's just me, but I have a lot easier time following the 79 lines of code above versus the 5 lines + screen shots + talking you through the screen shots. Anyway, I found this very exciting and hope I haven't bored y'all too much. I'm loving PyObjC even more than usual now, which is something. Now to write something more substantial... --Dethe Excel is the Awk of Windows --Joel Spolsky

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ATS is a bad name for Appscript Terminology Server
by Bob Ippolito Oct. 29, 2004

Oct. 29, 2004

has, Can you come up with another name for the appscript terminology caching server? ATS is already Apple Type Services. -bob

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Pygame & PyObjC , NSTextFields
by Jerome Oct. 29, 2004

Oct. 29, 2004

How do I let an NSTextField get key downs? pygame is capturing them, wondering how i can either detect them and forward them on to cocoa or avoid key events from getting to pygame instead... any help appreciated :) --jerome

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py2app and PyQt
by Kevin Walzer Oct. 29, 2004

Oct. 29, 2004

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've been playing with py2app and a PyQt app I donwloaded, just trying to see if I could package it up., but have failed. The app runs when launched from the command line with pythonw, but dies when launched from the py2app-generated bundle. The console tells me, "Can't find PyQt module." The Qt libs do get copied to the bundle, so I'm not sure what the problem is. - -- Kevin Walzer, PhD WordTech Software--Open Source Applications and Packages for OS X http://www.wordtech-software.com http://www.smallbizmac.com http://www.kevin-walzer.com mailto:sw@wordtech-software.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBf/ZvJmdQs+6YVcoRAuwqAJ4rCGigQ4nx5MeFYtVsn/KhlcJ8TQCffNJ7 9BmyJ77Ti8pJH6Y8icpkgEI= =Vj/b -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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wxPython on the Mac - one function with Bus Error
by Christian Meesters Oct. 27, 2004

Oct. 27, 2004

Hi, This is my first post here, so please apologize if the problem has been brought up before - I just feel MacUsers might know an answer to this question, rather than people at the wxPython list. Well, I am using a Mac (OS 10.3.5), Python(2.3), and wx.Python(2.5.8). When creating a ListBox in wxPython with a multiple choice option I cannot quit my application properly. A Bus Error will be raised and printed on the shell - unfortunately without further information. This does not happen when I a) do not open the dialog with the ListBox, or b) do not enable the multiple choice option, or c) do not bind the event. I do not see the error unless I quit the application. However, the same thing happens when using the demo application, not only by invoking main.py in the demos, but also when using the build demo. In the latter case I don't see the error message on the shell, of course, but the program crashes. All that only associated with the muliple choice option. It doesn't matter whether I'm dealing with a MultipleChoiseDialog directly or a ListBox with multiple choice option: Same thing. Is this a known problem? And, is there any solution known? I noted this problem a few days ago in the wxPython user list and got no response, so I would be glad if somebody could give me a hint - anything: I don't even know what possibly could cause a Bus Error here. Thanks a lot in advance. Cheers Chris

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