🌐 Mailman 3 April 2004 - Pythonmac-SIG - python.org

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python for OSX programming beginner?
by Russell E Owen March 20, 2005

March 20, 2005

>Been lurking here for a while and quietly observing. > >I am looking for a programming language and preferably and IDE for a >young nephew wanting to dip his toes in the programming pool... >Is Python worth further investigating and how good are the IDEs? >Is there something along the lines of REALbasic VisualBasic >integrated interface/code style IDE available? >What are the specialities limits of the language? >Why learn Python rather than battle on and master C or more >particularly Objective C ? >Rather difficult to answer, but how different is the learning curve? > >Many thanks for any help. Hmmm...I suggest the following: Smalltalk: Squeak and VisualWorks NC are both free (the latter only for noncommercial use). Smalltalk is a lovely, simple really powerful language that includes: - powerful IDE and class browser with integrated debugger; smalltalk has the best development environment I've ever seen for a language because it includes live debugging, live changing of classes (want to fix a method? go ahead; the change propagates; fix it and continue on the fly) - really simple yet powerful language; one of the most elegant languges I've seen, though the syntax is a bit different than C and Python programmers are used to - very rich class library, including one of the nicest collection classes (lists, sets, etc.) available Between these two, squeak is smaller and more fun and includes a nifty GUI called Morphic; however it all runs in one big window (very non-Mac like). VisualWorks is more Mac-like (at least on a Mac) and more mature, but is much larger. Both are fully cross-platform (write once, run everywhere). One limitation to smalltalk is that it's not much good for simple scripting, hence simple text processing scripts and such. Python really shines there, so... Python. This is a really nice language and he'll be able to go far with it. However, based on what you said above, some of its limitations make me nervous: - there is no really well integrated GUI, unlike the suggestions above. You can do GUI programming, but you have to choose a 3rd party package and they are fully powerful, but the two main ones (Tkinter and wxPython) are somewhat clumsy and poorly documented. - hence there is no really first rate IDE (not to put down the IDEs that are there, but in comparison to smalltalk or RealBasic...) Note: python is built into MacOS X 10.2, but it's an outdated version missing some of the things that make the language sane (such as readlines support and a GUI package). Install the missing items or a better package (if you've been reading you've seen various options for that including at least one recent binary installer). I suggest learning those two (since their few weaknesses are complimentary), but you could also consider: Buy RealBasic. The knowledge is well worth the money! It's not a wonderful language, but not so bad either and if he already knows it, well...that's a huge leg up. Java. Not sure what the IDE situation is for MacOS X, but the language is reasonable (much saner than C++). The problem is that the need to declare the type of all objects makes it a clumsy and messy language compared to Python and Smalltalk. I suggest NOT using C++. The language is too arcane and messy. The object model is insanely complicated and the pitfalls fill volumes. Learn to program first, then learn C++ later if you really have to. -- Russell

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(no subject)
by Keith Nemitz Dec. 6, 2004

Dec. 6, 2004

>> >> >> huh? I mean does everyone use[-3:] instead and 0 is taboo? I'm used >> to the Icon programming language where "food"[-3:0] returns --> ood > > "food"[-3:] is equivalent to "food"[-3:None] (that is, literally, how > it works out internally) > > "food"[-3:0] is just backwards :) If anything, it should give you > "oof", but that's too confusing. > > -bob > Thank you. I knew there had to be a reason. If you think about lists as ring buffers, however, then "food"[-3:0]-->"ood" makes plenty of sense and can be very useful. My case that started this whole thread had to do with iterating from negative to positive, returning larger substrings on each iteration. It broke with the zero index. So I had to special case it. sigh, I wonder if adding this 'concept' to python (indexing lists as ring buffers) would break any existing code... Heck while I'm at it, changing the language, might as well add nested comments, and (my personal favorite) record names, implemented like this: record <tuple of enums> tuple of enums ::= (<enum> [,enum]*) enum ::= <string>[= <int>] ...such that the keyword 'record' turns the strings into module and/or class scoped indexes. Isn't it fun to dream? Keith Nemitz

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WebKit, SVG
by Dinu Gherman Oct. 4, 2004

Oct. 4, 2004

Hi, recently I played a bit with Konfabulator, some kind of a "widget framework" for OS X, which looks very nice at the beginning. But after a while it seemed to me that despite the very good idea, its implementation is kind of using the wrong technology. They try to make it very simple to define widgets by specifying them in XML and adding behaviour in Javascript code. This is done in some very strange way, though, like putting the Javascript code insinde XML comments, which is the recommended way of doing it! Well, I think SVG and Python would be the better combination, so I wonder if Apple's WebKit is any good in making use of Adobe's SVG renderer plug-in, somehow? Of course, then we'd still need some bridge to Python, but you need to start somewhere... Dinu PS: www.konfabulator.com -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "The thing that impresses me the most about America is the way parents obey their children." (King Edward VIII)

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Quicktime, versions, 3GPP
by Dinu Gherman Aug. 15, 2004

Aug. 15, 2004

Hi again, does anybody know if the Quicktime modules under Carbon do always support the currently installed/found version of Quicktime during compile time, or is it a more difficult story? I'm especially interested in Quicktime 6.3 and higher with their ability to save in 3GPP mode for mobile devices... Thanks, Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman - http://python.net/~gherman ...................................................................... "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." (Alan Kay)

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framework _only_ build fails on 10.1
by Pascal Oberndoerfer July 4, 2004

July 4, 2004

I doubt this is of great interest anymore but still: maybe I just missed something? I tried to build the framework _only_ on 10.1 yesterday. No frameworkinstallapps or frameworkinstallextras. During make I get this problem: cc -Wl,-F. -bundle -framework Python build/temp.darwin-5.5-Power_Macintosh-2.3/macosmodule.o -L/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib -L/usr/local/lib -o build/lib.darwin-5.5-Power_Macintosh-2.3/MacOS.so -framework Carbon /usr/bin/ld: Undefined symbols: _CGMainDisplayID This is related to macosmodule.c I guess. Obviously this leads to unexpected skips during make test: 3 skips unexpected on darwin: test_macostools test_aepack test_scriptpackages and make frameworkinstallframework fails too of course: ./python.exe ./Mac/scripts/cachersrc.py -v /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/plat-mac /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/Mac/Tools Traceback (most recent call last): File "./Mac/scripts/cachersrc.py", line 7, in ? import macresource File "/Users/pob/Desktop/Python-2.3.3/Lib/plat-mac/macresource.py", line 6, in ? import MacOS ImportError: No module named MacOS make[1]: *** [installmacsubtree] Fehler 1 make: *** [frameworkinstallmaclib] Fehler 2 These were the steps taken: - download waste-21b1.sit to Desktop - download Python-2.3.3.tgz to Desktop - unpack both to Desktop - rename 'WASTE 2.1b1 Distribution' to waste - open Terminal - cd to ~/Desktop/Python-2.3.3 - ln -s ../waste waste - ./configure --enable-framework - edit ~/Desktop/Python-2.3.3/Mac/OSX/make for 10.1/10.2 on lines 13-16 (PBXBUILD=pbxbuild) (Don't know if this is necessary when not installing extras/apps) - make - make test - make frameworkinstallframework Thanks, Pascal

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Re: Pythonmac-SIG Digest, Vol 12, Issue 38
by Daniel Lord May 2, 2004

May 2, 2004

Just one opinion and experience and for what little it's worth: I find that compiling from source but configuring and installing a 'framework' install and using Aqua TCL/TK works but is problematic due to a few sticky areas including: PIL which I cannot get to compile though I haven't tried very hard, having to use pythonw as the command to force OS X to behave properly, and some Tkinter GUI attributes are overridden by Apples Gestapo-like UI enforcement (just kidding about the Gestapo comparison BTW but they are strict about it <grin>). Non-standard paths due to the framework install are most likely are the reason I struggle with PIL. This is a pain and it may be what Russell is alluding to when stating that an aqua/Mac install can cause conflicts and trouble. It appears it does. Sticking with X/standard python is what I would do if I could do it over again. I used to use Fink but have moved away from it FYI. Stay as 'standard' as you can and you'll avoid a lot of extra and cumbersome work in the future. There is always something you'll want to use that breaks on a 'non-standard' install. And if you are not particularly skilled in the nuances of Python environments and I am not, though many regular contributors here are, it is vexing to be unable to run some standard and not-so-standard additions. X11 on OS X seems to work very well as of Panther OS X and I second Russell's recommendation. --Daniel > >> I would like to "upgrade" my instal of Python to MacPython. I'm >> running >> Mac OS 10.3.3 and, having just used the MacPython additions installer, >> I realise that its updated the system copy of Python, not my instal. >> >> Question: How do I add the appropriate modules to my >> /usr/local/bin/Python2.3/ (my 2.3.3 instal) rather than the system >> versh? I've looked through MacPython's FAQ as suggested elsewhere on >> the MacPython web site but I didn't see anything directly relevant. > > This is a bit confusing as stated. > > MacOS X 10.3 comes with python 2.3.0 in /System. You should not touch > that. You will not ever get it up to 2.3.3. Also, it does NOT coexist > well with other MacPython aqua/python installations. > > If you just ran the MacPython extras installer then you are safe. This > uses the Python in /System without touching it, but adds a MacPython > folder in Applications with useful extras such as an IDE, the Package > Manager and help. > > This built in python puts extra modules in /Library/Python/2.3/ and if > you do the normal distutils thing to install packages (or use Package > Manager) then that is exactly where they will end up. > > If you installed Python 2.3.3 as an aqua/Mac installation (rather than > a > straight unix/X install) then you can expect conflicts and trouble. I'm > not fully up on what goes wrong, but it is a bad idea. > > You *CAN* safely install plain vanilla unix/X python (and I do that > myself). In that case add-on packages are not shared so you'll have to > install them twice, once per version of python, being sure to use the > right version of python in both cases. For example: > > /usr/local/bin/python setup.py install > vs > /usr/bin/python setup.py install > > or if you have /usr/local/bin first on your path you can do as I do: > python setup.py install for unix python > pythonw setup.py install for aqua python > > I hope this didn't make things yet more confusing. > > -- Russell

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Setting PYTHONPATH on mac os x
by Jason Van Anden April 30, 2004

April 30, 2004

Major newbie question - but one that was not so easy to parse out of a Google search for "set pythonpath mac" - until now, hopefully, with your help. How do I add to the pythonpath on mac os x? Really digging working with Python and the Mac, by the way. Thanks! J

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MacPython Install
by Simon Forster April 29, 2004

April 29, 2004

I would like to "upgrade" my instal of Python to MacPython. I'm running Mac OS 10.3.3 and, having just used the MacPython additions installer, I realise that its updated the system copy of Python, not my instal. Question: How do I add the appropriate modules to my /usr/local/bin/Python2.3/ (my 2.3.3 instal) rather than the system versh? I've looked through MacPython's FAQ as suggested elsewhere on the MacPython web site but I didn't see anything directly relevant. TIA Simon Forster _____________________________________________________ LDML Ltd, 62 Pall Mall, London, SW1Y 5HZ, UK Tel: +44 (0)70 9230 5244 Fax: +44 (0)70 9230 5247 _____________________________________________________

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Is wave.py maybe broken?
by Dinu Gherman April 29, 2004

April 29, 2004

Hi, I'm trying to use the wave module in the standard library, but seem to get errors when accessing .wav files which are otherwise playing fine on OS X (see traceback below). Is this perhaps an issue with a "vaguely defined" format or is it platform-specific, even? Thanks for any hints... Here's a sample which gives me the error below: http://www.dailywav.com/0404/seriousbitch.wav Dinu Python 2.3.3 (#1, Feb 2 2004, 19:00:54) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> >>> import wave >>> f = wave.open("seriousbitch.wav") Traceback (most recent call last): File "<stdin>", line 1, in ? File "/usr/lib/python2.3/wave.py", line 483, in open return Wave_read(f) File "/usr/lib/python2.3/wave.py", line 162, in __init__ self.initfp(f) File "/usr/lib/python2.3/wave.py", line 143, in initfp self._read_fmt_chunk(chunk) File "/usr/lib/python2.3/wave.py", line 264, in _read_fmt_chunk raise Error, 'unknown format: ' + `wFormatTag` wave.Error: unknown format: 85 >>> -- Dinu C. Gherman - http://python.net/~gherman ...................................................................... "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." (Alan Kay)

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Python Setup for Darwinports
by Robert White April 28, 2004

April 28, 2004

I may have missed it, but I am not aware any macpython people contributing to the discussions of how to properly implement Python in MacOSX and none of the darwinports people seem to be active on macpython when major discussions of how to implement python and pythnon-related software in darwinports are occurring. Since I belong to both mailing lists, but do not feel that I am knowledgeable enough to comment on technical details, I think that it would be worthwhile if some of the people on darwinports who are implementing the new python implementation consulted with some on the macpython group and vice versa. I have found that there is a significant amount of in-depth knowledge of the apple-installed python and running multiple pythons under MacOSX in the macpython group. If this has already occurred, I apologize for having missed that point and you can disregard this msg. Otherwise, it is just an observation/suggestion and sorry for not thinking of it sooner. Just my $.02, FWIW.

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