🌐 Mailman 3 September 2004 - Pythonmac-SIG - python.org

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python for OSX programming beginner?
by Russell E Owen March 20, 2005

March 20, 2005

>Been lurking here for a while and quietly observing. > >I am looking for a programming language and preferably and IDE for a >young nephew wanting to dip his toes in the programming pool... >Is Python worth further investigating and how good are the IDEs? >Is there something along the lines of REALbasic VisualBasic >integrated interface/code style IDE available? >What are the specialities limits of the language? >Why learn Python rather than battle on and master C or more >particularly Objective C ? >Rather difficult to answer, but how different is the learning curve? > >Many thanks for any help. Hmmm...I suggest the following: Smalltalk: Squeak and VisualWorks NC are both free (the latter only for noncommercial use). Smalltalk is a lovely, simple really powerful language that includes: - powerful IDE and class browser with integrated debugger; smalltalk has the best development environment I've ever seen for a language because it includes live debugging, live changing of classes (want to fix a method? go ahead; the change propagates; fix it and continue on the fly) - really simple yet powerful language; one of the most elegant languges I've seen, though the syntax is a bit different than C and Python programmers are used to - very rich class library, including one of the nicest collection classes (lists, sets, etc.) available Between these two, squeak is smaller and more fun and includes a nifty GUI called Morphic; however it all runs in one big window (very non-Mac like). VisualWorks is more Mac-like (at least on a Mac) and more mature, but is much larger. Both are fully cross-platform (write once, run everywhere). One limitation to smalltalk is that it's not much good for simple scripting, hence simple text processing scripts and such. Python really shines there, so... Python. This is a really nice language and he'll be able to go far with it. However, based on what you said above, some of its limitations make me nervous: - there is no really well integrated GUI, unlike the suggestions above. You can do GUI programming, but you have to choose a 3rd party package and they are fully powerful, but the two main ones (Tkinter and wxPython) are somewhat clumsy and poorly documented. - hence there is no really first rate IDE (not to put down the IDEs that are there, but in comparison to smalltalk or RealBasic...) Note: python is built into MacOS X 10.2, but it's an outdated version missing some of the things that make the language sane (such as readlines support and a GUI package). Install the missing items or a better package (if you've been reading you've seen various options for that including at least one recent binary installer). I suggest learning those two (since their few weaknesses are complimentary), but you could also consider: Buy RealBasic. The knowledge is well worth the money! It's not a wonderful language, but not so bad either and if he already knows it, well...that's a huge leg up. Java. Not sure what the IDE situation is for MacOS X, but the language is reasonable (much saner than C++). The problem is that the need to declare the type of all objects makes it a clumsy and messy language compared to Python and Smalltalk. I suggest NOT using C++. The language is too arcane and messy. The object model is insanely complicated and the pitfalls fill volumes. Learn to program first, then learn C++ later if you really have to. -- Russell

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(no subject)
by Keith Nemitz Dec. 6, 2004

Dec. 6, 2004

>> >> >> huh? I mean does everyone use[-3:] instead and 0 is taboo? I'm used >> to the Icon programming language where "food"[-3:0] returns --> ood > > "food"[-3:] is equivalent to "food"[-3:None] (that is, literally, how > it works out internally) > > "food"[-3:0] is just backwards :) If anything, it should give you > "oof", but that's too confusing. > > -bob > Thank you. I knew there had to be a reason. If you think about lists as ring buffers, however, then "food"[-3:0]-->"ood" makes plenty of sense and can be very useful. My case that started this whole thread had to do with iterating from negative to positive, returning larger substrings on each iteration. It broke with the zero index. So I had to special case it. sigh, I wonder if adding this 'concept' to python (indexing lists as ring buffers) would break any existing code... Heck while I'm at it, changing the language, might as well add nested comments, and (my personal favorite) record names, implemented like this: record <tuple of enums> tuple of enums ::= (<enum> [,enum]*) enum ::= <string>[= <int>] ...such that the keyword 'record' turns the strings into module and/or class scoped indexes. Isn't it fun to dream? Keith Nemitz

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Python 2.3.4 Installation
by Samuel M.Smith Nov. 28, 2004

Nov. 28, 2004

There isn't much on the new 2.3.4 Mac Python. Does 2.3.4 fix the problem where you couldn't have any framework version but the one that came with OSX (in this case 2.3 for Panther) ?. Does the install from source replace 2.3? There were a lot of posts about problems building extensions and stuff with a different version etc. Have those issues been resolved? More of a what is the current state of Python 2.3.4 framework on os x 10.3.5?

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solution for matplotlib compile problems
by Kenneth McDonald Oct. 14, 2004

Oct. 14, 2004

Just in case anyone else is interested... John Hunter, the fellow behind matplotlib, quickly provided a solution to my compile problems on OS X. Fetch this file: http://matplotlib.sf.net/setupext.py and use it to replace the file of the same name in the matplotlib root dir (dir containing 'setup.py'), then do the build. Worked great for me. I would imagine this is now (or soon will be) in the distribution. Thanks for the help, everyone, Ken

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WebKit, SVG
by Dinu Gherman Oct. 4, 2004

Oct. 4, 2004

Hi, recently I played a bit with Konfabulator, some kind of a "widget framework" for OS X, which looks very nice at the beginning. But after a while it seemed to me that despite the very good idea, its implementation is kind of using the wrong technology. They try to make it very simple to define widgets by specifying them in XML and adding behaviour in Javascript code. This is done in some very strange way, though, like putting the Javascript code insinde XML comments, which is the recommended way of doing it! Well, I think SVG and Python would be the better combination, so I wonder if Apple's WebKit is any good in making use of Adobe's SVG renderer plug-in, somehow? Of course, then we'd still need some bridge to Python, but you need to start somewhere... Dinu PS: www.konfabulator.com -- Dinu C. Gherman ...................................................................... "The thing that impresses me the most about America is the way parents obey their children." (King Edward VIII)

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Pyobjc some help please (standalone application with xcode)
by Matteo Rattotti Oct. 4, 2004

Oct. 4, 2004

Hi to all, I'm doing some program with pyobjc, and i like it a lot... I've installed the 1.1, so xcode gave me some template to create program, ok, very nice, using interface builder, using xcode to write the code, all is working nice, i build application and the .app work... But... There is a way to tell xcode that i want a standalone application, with pyobjc and other lib, so i can share my program to my little non-programmer friends? ;-) Thanks a lot for who respond me (maybe i offer a pizza) ps: python2.3, panther 10.3.5, xcode 1.1 Matteo Rattotti

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cwd and PythonLauncher problem
by Jim Harrison Oct. 2, 2004

Oct. 2, 2004

Sorry if this has been previously discussed. It appears that when a source file is double-clicked and starts with PythonLauncher (2.3), the directory of the file is not added to the Python module search paths. Thus other modules in that directory cannot be imported without a full path and files cannot be read or written using paths relative to the source file. IDLE, the Mac PythonIDE and the Windows implementation of Python seem to handle this correctly. The original launcher with MacPython (in the distant past) also handled this (PyOXIDE, on the other hand, seems to show the problem). Is a fix for this available or under consideration (with respect to the Launcher)? Or is this something that I've screwed up? Jim Harrison Univ. of Pittsburgh

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Some problem with pyobjc (standalone application with xcode)
by Matteo Rattotti Sept. 30, 2004

Sept. 30, 2004

Hi to all, I'm doing some program with pyobjc, and i like it a lot... I've installed the 1.1, so xcode gave me some template to create program, ok, very nice, using interface builder, using xcode to write the code, all is working nice, i build application and the .app work... But... There is a way to tell xcode that i want a standalone application, with pyobjc and other lib, so i can share my program to my little non-programmer friends? ;-) Thanks a lot for who respond me (maybe i offer a pizza) ps: python2.3, panther 10.3.5, xcode 1.1 Matteo Rattotti

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Re: python & postgresql: libpython?
by Jerry LeVan Sept. 30, 2004

Sept. 30, 2004

Scott, The Makefile that comes with Postgresql v 7.4.5 is a bit screwed up with respect to building the python shared lib. I posted a query on the postgresql general news group about the problem and a patch was posted by one of the developers. I googled around and also found a recipe for building the python shared library that also seems to work ( albeit a bit clumsy) Here are the instructions: If everything goes right, you should be able to make. Here you will get some problems with Python, but these can't be solved until a first (failing) make has been done. To fix these problems, open the src/Makefile.global and fix the line defining python_libspec by rep lacing it with: python_libspec = -framework Python Now go to the src/pl/plpython/ directory and open the Makefile with your favorite text editor, comm ent out the lines testing for a shared Python library (since on Mac OS X, this one is in a Framework , the test fails as written). #ifneq (,$(wildcard $(python_configdir)/libpython*$(DLSUFFIX)*)) #shared_libpython = yes #endif and #ifneq (,$(findstring yes, $(shared_libpython)$(allow_nonpic_in_shlib))) and don't forget the else part of it at the end of the file: #else # can't build #all: # @echo ""; # echo "*** Cannot build PL/Python because libpython is not a shared #library." ; # echo "*** You might have to rebuild your Python installation. Refer to"; # echo "*** the documentation for details."; # echo "" #endif # can't build Now you are ready to make again. It should work. Of course, if you run the configuration process again, you would also have to redo these changes ag ain. ********* Basically you have to change the value of the python-libspec to = -framework Python and then comment out the test for shared libs in the python make file. Anyway the shared library will be build and I was able to easily build the PyGreSQL module. I am a python newby but was able to get all of the python demo programs in the Douglas and Douglas book "Postgresql" to easily work (even the ones that used the Tk interfaces). Postgresql has interfaces to many programming systems Perl, Java, Tcl, Python,C, C++ and more. Hope this helps Jerry On Sep 30, 2004, at 6:00 AM, pythonmac-sig-request(a)python.org wrote: > From: Scott Frankel <leknarf(a)pacbell.net> > Date: September 29, 2004 8:22:29 PM EDT > To: pythonmac-sig(a)python.org > Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] python & postgresql: libpython? > > > > New to databases, I'm doing some leg-work to see which open source db > to > use: postgresql or mysql. Without trying to start a flame war, I > have questions > regarding postgresql installation & python, which is the scripting > language I'd like > to use to interface with it. > > The installation docs warn that I might have to rebuild part of my > python install > to create a python shared library. > > > Questions: > > - Does the standard 2.3 MacPython install build a shared library? If > so, it doesn't > appear to be called "libpython," as the postgresql docs suggest. > > - How would one rebuild part of the python install to create a shared > library? > > [and on thinner ice ...] > - All things being equal (which they're not!), which db has more > robust/mature > python interfaces to choose from? > > > Thanks in advance! > Scott >

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Speech
by Juan Sebastián Lach Sept. 30, 2004

Sept. 30, 2004

Hi Has, Although I had already solved the problem with .speak in sc, I installed appscript and osax didn't work, so I installed aem and osaterminology as described in the webpage, I also changed from appscript 0.5 to 0.6, after that, osax was still not found but the other things imported ok into python. I ran osax directly and it worked in the sense that it asked for a file to open and then ended (I guess that's ok), so after that I copied it into Library/Python/2.3 and now it imports but nothing happens when I run the script you sent. I'm not sure what I'm doing exactly and probably did some stuff wrong. Anyway, hope it helps you for what you're developing and if its enough to find a solution, it would certainly be very appreciated. Thanks js

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