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Just come across a jazz tune - After Hours, as it happens - which is said to be in Dโ™ญ Dorian. That would make more sense to be called Cโ™ฏ Dorian, or would it - as Dโ™ญ Dorian would put the parent key as Cโ™ญ major. Would it be better to call it Cโ™ฏ Dorian, with a more sensible B major as parent?

Just looked at the dots - indeed written with seven flats! Surely five sharps would be at least slightly better?

Song's from The Antidote, Ronnie Jordan,1992, but I was reluctant to put that - I'm not asking about that song in particular, it's just an example to show the question - key/mode?

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  • Is this the track? After Hours (Ronny Jordan) - Jazz Guitar Melody Lesson Commented 20 hours ago
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    Appears to have nothing to do with the Avery Parrish blues number? Also, what dots (please link or name)? And โ€œsaid to beโ€ in Dorian by whom? I didnโ€™t finish listening to the theme, but yes, the first few bars donโ€™t give me any reason to call it anything other than major. Commented 20 hours ago
  • @AndyBonner - from the 1992 album, The Antidote, Ronnie Jordan. Agreed, major. Commented 19 hours ago
  • @ElementsInSpace - yes, that's the one. Not sure who said Dorian, but it's on that site. But that's just an example - I'm asking if there's a better way to write it, or regard it. B maj seems a more appropriate key anyway, to me, at least. Commented 19 hours ago
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    You know the drill, please put all the relevant info in the body of the question, not just comments. I see a musescore transcription that just goes for the 5 sharps, but nothing "official." IMO this becomes a question of "Is this one jazz-guitar-online guy justified in his choice of key signature or mode? What does he base it on?" I'm guessing he's thinking more about the chords and less about the melody, and it's not necessarily meant as a rigorous harmonic analysis. Commented 19 hours ago

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I kinda fail to see what you're asking. If it has seven flats, then it is indeed written in Db Dorian and calling it C# Dorian would be flat out wrong. A beginner might be confused about this but I know you aren't.

Could you rewrite it into C# Dorian? Sure! And again, you know you can. The only thing I'm not entirely sure is whether it counts as transposition if you're switching to a key enharmonic with the original and not changing the pitches. I'm going to side with a yes, transposition by the zero-sized interval of a diminished second is still transposition.

Whether a player appreciates you've transposed the score will probably depend on what kind of instrument the piece is for, which you don't mention, and possibly even that person's personal preferences.

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  • I'm saying re-write it in Csharp Dorian, not just call it that! Fewer sharps and/or flats in a key sig. always goes down better! Funnily but to me, it doesn't sound Dorian at all - more major... Listen to Ronnie Jordan. Commented 21 hours ago
  • @Tim right now alto sax would see four flats if they are playing it in Db and they would have 6 sharps and one double sharp if you change it to C#, so in a jazz combo itโ€™s not straightforward to have the fewest sharps and flats. Commented 19 hours ago
  • @ToddWilcox - but, just like full scores, each transposing instrument will be written in its appropriate key. This is written in what I feel is inappropriate for the instrument - guitar. Commented 19 hours ago
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    FWIW, whenever I transpose/transcribe to an enharmonically-equivalent key, I usually call it "respelling". Commented 16 hours ago
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  1. In jazz, flats are preferred due to the preference of horns. It's however not due to the instrumentation of this particular piece, but a general convention in the genre. Guitar is not the first class citizen in jazz.

  2. You need to practice in all 30 keys

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  • +1 for the video - seen it several times. I struggle to find the time (and motivation) to practise in even 24 keys. I'll often see a piece in, say, Db, and pretend it's in 2 sharps - same dots on lines and spaces, but it gets played more easily. Cheating maybe, but in a band situation, not the cleverest. Often wonder why a particular key gets chosen, especially for guitar, a sharp instrument amongst few. Commented 18 hours ago
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    Consider the case of the piece in question: If someone wants to play it on an Eโ™ญ instrument (e.g. alto sax), they transpose from Cโ™ญ/Dโ™ญ Dorian to the key with three fewer flats (Aโ™ญ/Bโ™ญ Dorian). It goes from seven flats to four. If it were notated in B/Cโ™ฏ Dorian, that same saxophonist would transpose to the key with three more sharps (Gโ™ฏ/Aโ™ฏ Dorian), taking it from five sharps to eight! Commented 16 hours ago
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While it is true that in jazz, flat keys are generally preferred, I see this as a case where writing it with sharps, especially considering the chords in the turnaround is not a bad choice. Consider:

Amaj7 G#m7 Gmaj7 F#m7

As opposed to:

Bbbmaj7 Abm7 Abbmaj7 Gbm7

As for Dorian and parent keys, the same thing applies to the choice of a flat or sharp key. However, in my experience playing jazz I rarely see songs written in modal key signatures. People prefer to write and read in regular major or minor key signatures and fill in the accidentals. I believe one reason for this is a modal key signature can get confusing if the song has sections that are chromatic. Another is that people think of the tonic note as the central key so say, having a parent key signature of F (or D minor) for A Phrygian is a little odd unless the song is purely in a mode with little to no accidentals.

My last point is that in this case, I donโ€™t see much in the piece to suggest that it is in Dorian mode. The turnaround is very chromatic. The M6 note is used in passing only in the bridge section of the song but it is typical in jazz to use a M6 in tunes that are in a minor key. That doesnโ€™t necessarily make it Dorian, itโ€™s just C# or Db minor in my book.

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  • Certainly agree it's not Dorian. Commented 3 hours ago

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